Over Here… Over Here…

[kailuaboy]

No, it's not just me and maybe one or two other ex students bashing the Aviator. It would be possible to round up the names of ten or so posters that have said some pretty damning things about the school. These range from accusations of sloppy and incompetent management, having a macho, anti-safety culture, refusing to refund money that is owed to students, paying employees to pose as students to promote the school....the list is as long as it is shameful. I guess us naysayers are in a way kind of bitter. But most of us have moved on to airline and 135 jobs and at least one is an airline Captain; it would be easy to forget the whole Aviator experience and say nothing. The strength of feeling is so strong though that years after leaving the Aviator some of us are still bashing them here on JC. And I guess you could say the same about the pro Aviator crowd. The opinion is divided so the threads are always going to be heated.

So, MFT1Air, you've been posting for years on this forum, mainly saying nay of the naysayers, as you call us. I just want to clear a few things up. Have you ever been a student or instructor at the school? In fact, have you visited the place in the recent past? You obviously have a lot of life experience but I suspect you don't grasp the real problems here; yet you provide advice to others. I don't mean that as an attack on you BTW. The fundamental problems are Mike, TJ, Peggy and their "quirky" personalities. Get rid of them and replace them with responsible adults and you'd solve most of the problems. As that isn't going to happen any time soon, take the $$$$$$ some place else.

One last thing. What is the official word here on why Aviator's forum has been moved? I'd be surprised if Mike would pull the plug himself. This forum used to be a big shop window for Mike (until it was exposed).

*Personal attack deleted*

how far did you go through the program at the aviator? if you went through to commercials, or even passed the CFI's then i dont understand why you are complaining so much. If you truly believed in the above statement, why didnt you leave as soon as you got there? i dont think you have an answer to that question.

 

[Chewie von Nubbins]

Well, I have never been to this school. But, I have spoken to several folks that have went there and finished up their pro program. I have yet to find someone that has been to The Aviator that will pat you on the back and assure you that going there is a good decision. But, most of these people just don't want the hassle of speaking out against The Aviator.

I think it speaks volumes that people make it one of their main missions in life to bad mouth Ari Ben. Why are people so bitter? Really, ATP takes a lot of heat for their 90 day program...but I have never seen posts that attack the integrity, the way people were treated there, or any "character" issues that happen within The Aviator forum. So, for me, I tend to think that there must be some truth to the allegations that people like FF and NH have.

Lastly, why is it that the management that run Ari Ben are incompetent in their ability to resolve conflict that happens there at the place they are leading and in charge of? Have you ever seen people get on the ATP or Skymates forums and accuse those schools of these type of "character" issues?

 

[NickH]

I was at the school a few years back and Mike called us all into the hangar by the school. Some students had been posting here on JC, on a now missing thread called "quite displeased with this place." They were concerned with MX, safety and completion timescales. Mike said he was working to find out who was posting. He found out who it was and forced at least one regular poster to confess that he was lying, which he did. The rest of us students were threatened with being thrown out if there were any more complaints. Point being, Mike does not take criticism of the school well and this forum is now a place where you find a lot of criticism of the Aviator.

It's this kind of thing which most people should learn from. There were a lot of people there that day.

Why would Mike be working so hard to find out who the poster is? Why not spend all that time and energy working to fix the problems?

 

[kailuaboy]

Well, I have never been to this school. But, I have spoken to several folks that have went there and finished up their pro program. I have yet to find someone that has been to The Aviator that will pat you on the back and assure you that going there is a good decision. But, most of these people just don't want the hassle of speaking out against The Aviator.

I think it speaks volumes that people make it one of their main missions in life to bad mouth Ari Ben. Why are people so bitter? Really, ATP takes a lot of heat for their 90 day program...but I have never seen posts that attack the integrity, the way people were treated there, or any "character" issues that happen within The Aviator forum. So, for me, I tend to think that there must be some truth to the allegations that people like FF and NH have.

Lastly, why is it that the management that run Ari Ben are incompetent in their ability to resolve conflict that happens there at the place they are leading and in charge of? Have you ever seen people get on the ATP or Skymates forums and accuse those schools of these type of "character" issues?

I went to the Aviator without my PPSEL. I started with the program with about 50hrs (so I do have past experiences with other schools). I instructed at the Aviator for a year. I recommend the school to everyone that asks me about flight schools. I am not ashamed, nor am I displeased with the service I received while being at the Aviator. I wish I could even go back and instruct part time, but my current employer would never allow it. I had fun as a student and instructor there. I have never taken a plane that I didnt feel safe in. How many times had I refused to take a plane due to MX issues? I cant even think of that, cause that number is so minisquel (sp?) <--meaning small. I left the school with 1000tt and 800multi. So, I would say that, that makes me more than qualified to speak MY mind about this school.

Oh and on a side note: I am not paid by mike or any other persons from the school. All my posts, are of my own FREE WILL and said mind. Good Day!

 

[MFT1Air]

No, it's not just me and maybe one or two other ex students bashing the Aviator. It would be possible to round up the names of ten or so posters that have said some pretty damning things about the school. These range from accusations of sloppy and incompetent management, having a macho, anti-safety culture, refusing to refund money that is owed to students, paying employees to pose as students to promote the school....the list is as long as it is shameful. I guess us naysayers are in a way kind of bitter. But most of us have moved on to airline and 135 jobs and at least one is an airline Captain; it would be easy to forget the whole Aviator experience and say nothing. The strength of feeling is so strong though that years after leaving the Aviator some of us are still bashing them here on JC. And I guess you could say the same about the pro Aviator crowd. The opinion is divided so the threads are always going to be heated.

So, MFT1Air, you've been posting for years on this forum, mainly saying nay of the naysayers, as you call us. I just want to clear a few things up. Have you ever been a student or instructor at the school? In fact, have you visited the place in the recent past? You obviously have a lot of life experience but I suspect you don't grasp the real problems here; yet you provide advice to others. The fundamental problems are Mike, TJ, Peggy and their "quirky" personalities. Get rid of them and replace them with responsible adults and you'd solve most of the problems. As that isn't going to happen any time soon, take the $$$$$$ some place else.

One last thing. What is the official word here on why Aviator's forum has been moved? I'd be surprised if Mike would pull the plug himself. This forum used to be a big shop window for Mike (until it was exposed).

I won't nor can I argue with you about your perceptions about the school.

• Accusations of sloppy and incompetent management. Pretty hefty words from someone who has probably never owned a business? I've owned a business for a few years, and it's a demanding task. Worse than that, an academy is a customer service driven organization of individuals arriving on a regular basis using and abusing a product. Ari-Ben has been around awhile, hasn't it? Why is it that with its anti-safety culture and piss poor planes, it has managed to continue to endure? As I don't know Mike, TJ, and Peggy, 'quirk' in their personalities is as nebulous to me as the term "normal" or "wierd." Their demeanor may or may not be in synch with my own, so I can't say their personalities have "quirks." As a hypothetical situation, if you were my "left seat" and I were your "right seater" I'm not inclined to bash you simply because of personality differences. I've been taught that in many cases personalities will never gel, but work with personality differences to be effective. If you compromise my safety, you're going to hear about it quickly from me. You can attempt to "macho" me if you like, but the power of the civil system can and will deflate that testosterone surge as well as prove my point if I'm right with my belief.
• I have learned a valuable lesson from these posts. Firstly, when submitting monies to Ari-Ben, ensure I don't overpay to avoid some of the situation many are in presently. If not, go back and fly the "you know what" out of the airplanes to get my monies worth. If I still have money in queue with the organization, see if I can pass that money onto someone presently there. If they hassle me about MY money, take them to small claims court and let the court system handle it, or go to the Better Business Bureau and file a complaint there.

You're right, Florida Flyer. There are many pro and con posters to the forum. I'm incisive enough to read through the bashings and determine the deep seated reasons for the negative posts in addition to anyone who might post as if Ari-Ben is the Utopia of aviation academies that can do no wrong. That's BS as well. My point has always been posts should be constructive and beneficial to all parties concerned to correct a perceived problem rather than simply complain. Ari-Ben, unless, because of their perceived bad management practices, will continue on for quite awhile. I don't see the rationale of bashing an organization simply because of three people. I don't know how much interaction there is with these individuals on a day to day basis, but many others have been successful dealing the rest of those who are part of the organization be they maintenance personnel or fellow students or instructors. Focusing on the positive and working to resolve the negative should be every aviator's goal.

 

[SteveC]

Re: Over Here… Over Here…

I've not bothered to read the sum total of YOUR posts, but initially my impression was that you were an incisive person. I'm starting to change my initial impression.

For my many years particularly in the military, I've prided myself on evaluating data based upon best case/worse case scenarios. If one doesn't play the role of "devil's advocate" to favorable situations, lives are lost. I've seen on too many occasions, especially during my Vietnam stint if people don't naysay, a good situation can go to hell in a handbasket quickly.

Having said that, when someone naysays, providing constructive comments in support of one's argument bodes well for many to gain a complete totallyl unbiased viewpoint. From 2,3, maybe 4 former Ari-Ben students, I personally haven't seen that constructive criticism. I've seen petty bickering relating to personality differences between management and students; I've seen disrespectful comments about the owner and his personality predicated either, in my opinion, on the owner's failure to reach an amiable resolution to conflict with a former student, or the student's perception of being ripped off by Ari-Ben followed by the only recourse available - that being to bash the organization on the web. . .more specifically this forum.

There are many former Ari-Ben students on this forum. Their comments have been varied both pro and con. Even the pros Ari-Ben comments were not without negatives comments addressed in order to improve the conditions for future students. With the 2,3 or 4 continuous naysayer? I've read very little from them that would allow me to conclude they are simply bitter frustrated former students with unresolved issues with the school with their only recourse but to bash the school on this forum.

They say Ari-Ben's planes are not safe, yet statistically, I've seen nothing documented to support the comment. They say the prices quoted have been "low balled." I've not seen any either academies or FBOs that have provided quotes for prices that were 100% correct. . .not even close.

There's this organization called the Better Business Bureau. If someone has a grievance with business practices of Ari-Ben, have those individuals filed a complaint with the BBB? If so, what was the outcome of the complaint? Seems to me the most professional thing to do when a "businesses" practices are unfair to the customer is to file a complaint.

What I do like, at least so far, is that despite the negativity from those select few, the strong support from former students negate comments from others. There have been complaints, but overall, the comments have been that many gained valuable experience, good and bad, they have learned and benefited by while being at Ari-Ben. OK, so Fort Pierce isn't the nicest place to be. I'm curious how many individuals/former or present students from the school have been victims of a crime while attending the school? I'd like to compare that to crime statistics from other schools around the country.

My biggest gripe? Whiners. . .it does annoy me on a personal level when comments are made continually from posters that aren't professional or constructive in nature. When that happens, I'll challenge them either on a private or public forum to support their comments.

Lastly, "ignorance?" The word can be perceived as provoking in nature, but it's not applicable to me. I've interacted with many an ignorant person in my life to know I'm very capable of differentiating myself as insightful as opposed to petty, ill-informed, weak-minded individuals who haven't a clue about addressing conflicts towards a favorable resolution without whining.

MFT1Air, if I haven't said so publically before, I will now. You've got a level head and understand how these forums are supposed to work. Thank you. I think that you do a much better job than most of sifting through the piles of *information* available here to come up with a pretty good overall picture, not just of this school but of the industry in general, and how that picture fits in with your life goals.

Unfortunately many readers/posters won't really read what you've written and will simply assume that you are defending (or bashing I suppose) Ari-Ben, and will attack based on that misperception. I know, because I have been accused of being blantantly pro- and anti- Ari-Ben when I make comments or moderate threads to try to bring them back to a level of intelligent discussion rather than a heated, emotion-based bash fest.

Horse...water...

 

[MFT1Air]

. . .and SteveC, if you think I'm going to sift through your 6000 posts and get a flavor of your viewpoints or perspectives, it aint gonna happen!!!!!!

Thanks!

 

[woog315]

This would be the cue for someone to point out something irrelevant in an attempt to damage the character of these students.

How about the cue to tell the actual, whole story? This post is pretty much a summary of why people can't stand you Nick, it's not because we don't want criticism of Ari-Ben on this board- it's because you present constant half-truths and have an apparently ceaseless (and pathetic) desire to vent every single negative thing you can about the school in every single thread that pops up here- without a single positive word to say.

The story with the students and the laptop is this- everyone got extremely drunk that night and the departing instructor had been moved from the Vero housing into the Pan-Am housing(a whole other story in itself), but his motorcycle remained in Jeff's(the guy who had his laptop stolen) garage. The drunk guys decided to GO INTO THE HOUSE AND TAKE THE MOTORCYCLE AT 2AM because another student wanted to buy the motorcycle. They did this while everyone who actually lived in the house was asleep. I don't agree with Ari-Ben's decision to make them pay for the laptop, but the situation was not nearly so simple as "they happened to walk past the house". Whether any of the group actually took the laptop is still up in the air, but its quite a coincidence. I was friends with all the guys involved, and like to think none of them stole it, but wow what a coincidence- nothing has ever been stolen from ari-ben housing, but on one night not 1 but 2 separate groups of people entered one house and took things. I dunno....

The police were involved the next morning and wanted to arrest 2 of the students, Mike prevented that from happening because he understood what it would do to the careers of those involved, he opted to handle it in a private, personal manner. What a terrible guy!

 

[Gonzo]

The police were involved the next morning and wanted to arrest 2 of the students, Mike prevented that from happening because he understood what it would do to the careers of those involved, he opted to handle it in a private, personal manner. What a terrible guy!

From my understanding from talking to the people involved, Mike had very little control over what the police did and did not do. Similar to the situation with Kyle, Mike likes to claim the only reason he still has his licenses is that Mike went to bat for him. The reality is Mike did very little for Kyle.

This Is Speculation - my gut feeling is Mike knew who took the stuff but had no recourse against that individual. He was forced with the options to either pay out of pocket(for the transgressions of the past employee on his property), stay out of it and allow the victim to pursue criminal charges against those involved, or he could strong-arm people into paying for damages. The ethical choices would have been option one or two. But instead he chose to take the easy option.


P.S. – How do you like the Saab? How close are you to upgrading?

 

[Gonzorox]

I don't understand why any of you are 'bashing' MFTair? He, like the moderator pointed out, is a neutral party. He's just an intelligent observer of what get's posted. Now some of you hit him with the "What ratings did you get at the Aviator"/"Have you ever been to the Aviator" questions. To me this sounds like the defensive questioning line. As if he knows nothing, yet, he's actively (and neutrally) involved in almost every post.

No one is going to "pat your back" no matter what school you go to. Nobody gives a flying finger! What will raise eyebrows are the guys who have 1200TT/1000ME. Not the guys who 90 days ago thought a stall was a place to pee in. Or the guys who are struggling to pay off the $80-$100 large to Sallie Mae.

Where are the 6, 7, 8, 9 and 10 negative posters Shorefly?? They're probably sitting around a crew room with the equivalent or greater numbered positive ABA alumni.

And Nick, "the biggest drawback of the school taking thousands of dollars upfront and students having little if any ability to do anything. Most students are young, away from home for the first time, and are already frustrated by delays.".... welcome to the real world kids!! Should they grow up or continue breast-feeding for a few more years. The school took my payments in thirds, and I flew a lot while I was going through training. Again, I had no problems there with the school. Everything for me went just as promised.

I've said it a million times on here, if I had to do it over again, I would go right back there and do it over again.

 

[woog315]

P.S. – How do you like the Saab? How close are you to upgrading?

Yeah, like I said, I don't agree with how he handled it, but I do think it was better than letting the police do what they wanted to do. And I was involved, and the police WERE going to arrest 2 people- I was one of them. There was initial confusion as to who actually went into the house that night (yeah, we were that drunk) and my name got dropped even though I wasn't there- and I was so drunk I wasn't sure! Anyways, I guess that pretty much clears up who I am

P.S. I'm not who you think I am I'm living it up at Sierra academy in CA now, teaching Chinese airline cadets. Are you ever going to get your ratings? If you do, there is really good money to be made at this place and they need instructors.

 

[ShoreFly]

I don't understand why any of you are 'bashing' MFTair? He, like the moderator pointed out, is a neutral party. He's just an intelligent observer of what get's posted. Now some of you hit him with the "What ratings did you get at the Aviator"/"Have you ever been to the Aviator" questions. To me this sounds like the defensive questioning line. As if he knows nothing, yet, he's actively (and neutrally) involved in almost every post.

No one is going to "pat your back" no matter what school you go to. Nobody gives a flying finger! What will raise eyebrows are the guys who have 1200TT/1000ME. Not the guys who 90 days ago thought a stall was a place to pee in. Or the guys who are struggling to pay off the $80-$100 large to Sallie Mae.

Where are the 6, 7, 8, 9 and 10 negative posters Shorefly?? They're probably sitting around a crew room with the equivalent or greater numbered positive ABA alumni.

And Nick, "the biggest drawback of the school taking thousands of dollars upfront and students having little if any ability to do anything. Most students are young, away from home for the first time, and are already frustrated by delays.".... welcome to the real world kids!! Should they grow up or continue breast-feeding for a few more years. The school took my payments in thirds, and I flew a lot while I was going through training. Again, I had no problems there with the school. Everything for me went just as promised.

I've said it a million times on here, if I had to do it over again, I would go right back there and do it over again.

Dude, Chill out.
Here's the deal: If I never went to a school, lets say Princeton, I certainly would have no reason to be posting my opinions of the school to prospective students. My posts should be disregarded, and should be considered a 'blind poster'. I feel the same way about 'outsiders' posting their opinions about Ari-Ben. Do you understand?
As far as the other (6, 7, 8, 9 and 10) past students/instructors that MAY post negatively about this school, the difference is that I (like FF, Gonzo, NickH, Cruise) care enough to get the word out to the prospective student.
My own personal mission is to inform the people of this forum of things that I wish I knew before I handed my money over, things they don't have posted on the school's advertisement website or what you don't find out until AFTER the initial tour.

I'm glad you liked it there, but it certainly wasn't for everyone. We're just getting the word out.

 

[MFT1Air]

Dude, Chill out.
Here's the deal: If I never went to a school, lets say Princeton, I certainly would have no reason to be posting my opinions of the school to prospective students. My posts should be disregarded, and should be considered a 'blind poster'. I feel the same way about 'outsiders' posting their opinions about Ari-Ben. Do you understand?
As far as the other (6, 7, 8, 9 and 10) past students/instructors that MAY post negatively about this school, the difference is that I (like FF, Gonzo, NickH, Cruise) care enough to get the word out to the prospective student.
My own personal mission is to inform the people of this forum of things that I wish I knew before I handed my money over, things they don't have posted on the school's advertisement website or what you don't find out until AFTER the initial tour.

I'm glad you liked it there, but it certainly wasn't for everyone. We're just getting the word out.

. . .yep, "horse/water. . ." Cliche' is appropriate for this one as well. :yeahthat:

PM me if you wish further clarification. If you wish to bash me, go ahead and post it here, and I'll respond.

 

[Gonzorox]

Dude, Chill out.
Here's the deal: If I never went to a school, lets say Princeton, I certainly would have no reason to be posting my opinions of the school to prospective students. My posts should be disregarded, and should be considered a 'blind poster'. I feel the same way about 'outsiders' posting their opinions about Ari-Ben. Do you understand?
As far as the other (6, 7, 8, 9 and 10) past students/instructors that MAY post negatively about this school, the difference is that I (like FF, Gonzo, NickH, Cruise) care enough to get the word out to the prospective student.
My own personal mission is to inform the people of this forum of things that I wish I knew before I handed my money over, things they don't have posted on the school's advertisement website or what you don't find out until AFTER the initial tour.

I'm glad you liked it there, but it certainly wasn't for everyone. We're just getting the word out.

DUDE, I'm plenty chilled!

Quite frankly, he hasn't posted his opinion of the school, he has posted his evaluation as a prospective student based on what's written here.

While I agree that you all should tell your negative experiences of the school, Cruise and yourself do not come on here on a daily basis trashing the school. You two bring 'information' to the table, not just the same old BS day in day out, you understand. Sure, people should be warned what to expect after the tour, JC is a great resource to learn from others. But bashing they way those two do is something a little different.

 

[kailuaboy]

DUDE, I'm plenty chilled!

Quite frankly, he hasn't posted his opinion of the school, he has posted his evaluation as a prospective student based on what's written here.

While I agree that you all should tell your negative experiences of the school, Cruise and yourself do not come on here on a daily basis trashing the school. You two bring 'information' to the table, not just the same old BS day in day out, you understand. Sure, people should be warned what to expect after the tour, JC is a great resource to learn from others. But bashing they way those two do is something a little different.

just a note Gonzorox and Shorefly, we all work for the same company. just a thought.

 

[MFT1Air]

just a note Gonzorox and Shorefly, we all work for the same company. just a thought.

Yep. . .the other terms I can think of immediately are "continuous improvement" and "Lean Six Sigma."

Identify a problem or the perception of one and work to resolve it. Positive thinking usually results in a positive resolution.

 

[Gonzorox]

just a note Gonzorox and Shorefly, we all work for the same company. just a thought.

All i am saying is that they (Cruise and Shorefly) contribute valuable information here, albeit negative, still VALUABLE to a prospective student. This is much unlike what you're going get out of FloridaFlyer or NickH.

I know those two guys, and have a lot of respect for them both(Cruise and Shorefly that is).

 

[kailuaboy]

Yep. . .the other terms I can think of immediately are "continuous improvement" and "Lean Six Sigma."

Identify a problem or the perception of one and work to resolve it. Positive thinking usually results in a positive resolution.

i think im too stupid to understand what the hell you're talking about. dont bother explaining it.

 

[Florida_Flyer]

Yep. . .the other terms I can think of immediately are "continuous improvement" and "Lean Six Sigma."

Identify a problem or the perception of one and work to resolve it. Positive thinking usually results in a positive resolution.

Sounds like management consultant / contractor speak to me. It makes perfect sense on the surface, but beyond the buzz words, is a little more complicated in the real world. The route cause of all the problems is the owner of the school. The approach that you're suggesting is the polar opposite of how he runs his business. He'd rather spend his time stamping on the complainers than tackling the issues they are complaining about. Probably why the forum is now such an obscure location. Most forms of change have to be driven by the man at the top and this needs him to understand the real problems here. Just ain't gonna happen.

So SteveC, you've seen the thread. Care to give us an official reason why the forum has moved? I think it's a fair question.

 

[brentg350]

I've heard alot about the school good and bad, and I like forming my own opinion. Is there anybody that is currently a student or instructor there that wouldn't mind giving me a tour of the place? I will be there the first week in October - for a week.