O'Hare spotting today

F

flyeagle111

CFO
So I was spotting at O'Hare today and the wind was over 30kts. They were using one runway for departures (28) and it was a pretty good crosswind. I noticed that many pilots were telling the controller that it was over their crosswind restriction and they could not depart. What I don't understand is why the same type of aircraft of the same company departs and one doesn't. Anyone have any info on this?? It was funny listening to some of the comments of the pilots when the controllers couldn't use another runway. "So you are going to shut down the busiest airport in the world for midway" (midway was landing 13C and this was affecting other runway departures). another pilot said "but southwest needs to get into Midway!" By the way...does the line always get that long for departure during bad weather?:rolleyes:
 
Some ops specs have different crosswind limitations than others for the same aircraft. I don't know why the same aircraft and same company would have differing limitations though, except if there was some kind of training you had to accomplish and one crew had and the other did not.
 
I certainly don't know much about airline op's, but it seems like I read on here that "junior" captains might have more restrictive minimums (cross wind component) than more experienced guys. I don't know, maybe the airline guys will let us know.
 
Normally new captains are on high mins for just their 1st 100 hours in the left seat of a new airplane. And with how stagnant the industry has been as of late, I doubt there are that many high mins captains floating around.

EDIT: Also, at least here, high mins doesn't have a wind restriction. Just our normal crosswind limitation of 27 knots.
 
flyeagle111 said:
So I was spotting at O'Hare today and the wind was over 30kts. They were using one runway for departures (28) and it was a pretty good crosswind. I noticed that many pilots were telling the controller that it was over their crosswind restriction and they could not depart. What I don't understand is why the same type of aircraft of the same company departs and one doesn't. Anyone have any info on this?? It was funny listening to some of the comments of the pilots when the controllers couldn't use another runway. "So you are going to shut down the busiest airport in the world for midway" (midway was landing 13C and this was affecting other runway departures). another pilot said "but southwest needs to get into Midway!" By the way...does the line always get that long for departure during bad weather?:rolleyes:
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We have a xwind limit of 32kts for T/O and Landings on the A300. The wind is very dynamic and can vary from one t/o to another. Some a/c may have gotten the reported wind velocities running within their limits while 5 mins later it may exceed the limits and a no-go decision is made.
 
t-cart said:
I certainly don't know much about airline op's, but it seems like I read on here that "junior" captains might have more restrictive minimums (cross wind component) than more experienced guys. I don't know, maybe the airline guys will let us know.
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"Junior" Capt's are not subject to reduced x-wind limits. They use the same limits as the more "senior" Capt's.
 
At my airline we have no limitation on the Saab just a demonstrated of 35knots and that is the airlines suggestion as the highest, however it states that its "at the captains discretion." I'm willing to be if you flat out didnt try an approach or didnt take off due to a 35knot cross wind and the surface wasnt contaminated, the chief pilot would be calling asking why. Last week I was fairly impressed to hear a Captain tell us how he went missed when winds were gusting that high, on a snow packed surface. He diverted back to the hub in the end.

As well as ops at different airlines being different, some Captains flat out break the limitations.

Our limit in the Saab for a tail wind is 10knots, and Im pretty sure its been broken before.
 
flyeagle111 said:
By the way...does the line always get that long for departure during bad weather?:rolleyes:
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A couple weeks ago when all those storms were rolling through (I don't remember exactly which one) but they were also down to one runway, 22L ,for departures. They were also sequencing arrivals on to that runway as well. The departure line was stacked well past the E-gates if you're familiar and most of the alleys were stacked with planes ready to leave.
 
Man I remember the days when I begged my dad to take me spotting at O'Hare when I was a little kid! Since you were looking at Runway 28 departuers, were you by the old Starlight Hotel?

Cheers!
 
v1valarob said:
At my airline we have no limitation on the Saab just a demonstrated of 35knots and that is the airlines suggestion as the highest, however it states that its "at the captains discretion." I'm willing to be if you flat out didnt try an approach or didnt take off due to a 35knot cross wind and the surface wasnt contaminated, the chief pilot would be calling asking why. Last week I was fairly impressed to hear a Captain tell us how he went missed when winds were gusting that high, on a snow packed surface. He diverted back to the hub in the end.

As well as ops at different airlines being different, some Captains flat out break the limitations.

Our limit in the Saab for a tail wind is 10knots, and Im pretty sure its been broken before.
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You're absolutely right, they are just "demonstrated" limits. However, you bend some metal or hurt someone and the FAA will want to know why you decided to exceed the demonstrated winds and become a test pilot with paying pax onboard.

You land okay while exceeding those winds and it's "No harm no Foul". Bend the aircraft and the Feds will treat them as hard limits. That's why I tend to follow those demonstrated limits. I have too much to lose and it took to long to get here. I tend to think of the possible legality of things versus mine or the a/c's abilities. It's been working for me so far.:)

Just a thought....

BTW...we also have recommended guidlines for x-winds during inclement weather (cluttered rwy, etc..). I tend to think of them as hard limits. Nobody can fault you for sticking with the charts even if they say "Recommended" or "Demonstrated".
 
Thanks for the info guys! It was a very interesting day at ORD. I was spotting on the top of the main parking deck (right next to the hilton). So far I've been up there about ten times, and security doesn't seem to care.
 
A300Capt said:
You're absolutely right, they are just "demonstrated" limits. However, you bend some metal or hurt someone and the FAA will want to know why you decided to exceed the demonstrated winds and become a test pilot with paying pax onboard.

You land okay while exceeding those winds and it's "No harm no Foul". Bend the aircraft and the Feds will treat them as hard limits. That's why I tend to follow those demonstrated limits. I have too much to lose and it took to long to get here. I tend to think of the possible legality of things versus mine or the a/c's abilities. It's been working for me so far.:)

Just a thought....

BTW...we also have recommended guidlines for x-winds during inclement weather (cluttered rwy, etc..). I tend to think of them as hard limits. Nobody can fault you for sticking with the charts even if they say "Recommended" or "Demonstrated".
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This should be required reading in indoc/systems training. You know what I think when I read a message like this? Free training that should have cost lots of money. Invaluable experience being passed down for free. Stuff you can't learn from a book, but rather a seasoned veteran whose willing to share his/her knowledge. Another reason jetcareers has changed the game!!!
 
That was a very interesting landing on 27R today. We had a turn to an outstation that had 1/4 mile vis, turned around went back to Ord and had a guy on the plane ask me how I can look myself in the mirror in the morning inconveniencing people the way we do.
 
A300Capt said:
You're absolutely right, they are just "demonstrated" limits. However, you bend some metal or hurt someone and the FAA will want to know why you decided to exceed the demonstrated winds and become a test pilot with paying pax onboard.

You land okay while exceeding those winds and it's "No harm no Foul". Bend the aircraft and the Feds will treat them as hard limits.
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Is there any legal precedent that makes you believe this or is it just one of those personal beliefs?

I'm not saying to go out and try to land in a 50kt direct crosswind. I'm just wondering if someone was actually violated for specifically landing (er..."crashing"?) over the crosswind value. Obviously, they'd ding you with 91.13, but it isn't a limitation specifically so I can't see how they'd ding you for operating outside the aircraft's limits.

-mini
 
mrivc211 said:
That was a very interesting landing on 27R today. We had a turn to an outstation that had 1/4 mile vis, turned around went back to Ord and had a guy on the plane ask me how I can look myself in the mirror in the morning inconveniencing people the way we do.
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I would say that I'll look at my reflection just fine, knowing that I acted with the safety of my crew and passengers in mind. Some people never cease to amaze me.
 
mrivc211 said:
That was a very interesting landing on 27R today. We had a turn to an outstation that had 1/4 mile vis, turned around went back to Ord and had a guy on the plane ask me how I can look myself in the mirror in the morning inconveniencing people the way we do.
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What a ######!!


Our POH has it as a demonstrated x-wind of 30 knots. However I think on the 170s it is a hard limitation but I could be wrong.
 
I would imagine the wind was right at the demonstrated for some of those planes. One minute, the wind may have been within and the next minute it may have been just beyond demonstrated. That being said, I know some crews would take a departure right at demonstrated and gusty without an issue and some would choose to wait it out, citing their company limits rather than giving any other reason over the radio (it's easier than allowing people to think you're skerd:sarcasm:).
 
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