NOT Good!

I'd keep this in mind whenever I read the SCOPE section of a TA I'm about to vote on.....
 
Who is going to fly this line? Will they get high-time GoJet people since they have already made a similiar decision?
 
WacoFan said:
Who is going to fly this line? Will they get high-time GoJet people since they have already made a similiar decision?
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If I read the article properly, it's a codeshare. No different than Delta putting their flight number on an Air France flight. Or Continental on a KLM flight.
 
N826AW said:
If I read the article properly, it's a codeshare. No different than Delta putting their flight number on an Air France flight. Or Continental on a KLM flight.
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You read it wrong.

The airplanes will be supplied by Air Lingus. The crews will be hired off the street specifically to fly these routes.

fly8slep said:
Huh? What's the problem?
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Yeah, I don't think YOU would get it.
 
BobDDuck said:
You read it wrong.

The airplanes will be supplied by Air Lingus. The crews will be hired off the street specifically to fly these routes.
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No I read it right. The article sucks.


fly8slep said:
Uh... where does it say anything about supply and street pilots?
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It does here...

United and Aer Lingus are expanding their recent codesharing partnership in move that The Wall Street Journal describes as "an unusual linkup." The Journal says "the airlines, which already cooperate on flights between the U.S. and Ireland, plan to begin with flights between Madrid and Washington (Dulles), starting in March 2010. Both carriers will market the flights and have their flight numbers on the route. But Aer Lingus will operate the planes and will be primarily responsible for costs, while United will take the lead on marketing tickets and generating revenue for the operation."

The Associated Press writes that "Aer Lingus' corporate planning director, Stephen Kavanagh, (said) Aer Lingus would provide the crews and aircraft for the Washington-Madrid service — but the bulk of traffic would come from United's U.S. customers. He said the two airlines would split profits and risks equally." The Journal says "Aer Lingus will use an existing $350 million order with Airbus to supply three A330-200s for the partnership -- which includes the route from Washington to Madrid -- as well as two aircraft for two future routes, (Aer Lingus CEO Dermot Mannion) said."

The route represents one of the most-unique attempts yet by airlines to exploit the recently enacted Open Skies agreement between the USA and the European Union. That changes allows European carriers to fly between the U.S. and any EU country, even if it is not an airline's home country. Previously, most European carriers' flights from the U.S. could fly only to their home nations. For Aer Lingus, the route will give the Irish carrier its "first flights from a U.S. city to a destination outside of Ireland," the Baltimore Business Journal writes.

AP says United and Aer Lingus are "mulling other possible joint ventures to exploit the year-old 'open skies' pact between U.S. and EU aviation authorities." Bloomberg News (via the Chicago Tribune) writes "Aer Lingus and UAL will review the partnership after two years and may turn it into a 'full-blown joint venture,' with the Irish carrier owning 51%." Still, AP notes "Thursday's deal comes at a time of unusual uncertainty for Aer Lingus, a formerly state-controlled airline" that is now fighting off a takeover bid from European low-cost giant Ryanair.

And the United-Aer Lingus effort may run into other bumps –- including from United's own employees. Bloomberg News notes the company's pilots union is opposed to the deal, "saying it would allow the Chicago-based carrier to establish an airline operation that doesn't use its own aircraft or employees." Steve Wallach, head of the Air Line Pilots Association at United, tells Bloomberg that he thinks the expanded Aer Lingus partnership "is nothing less than the outsourcing of jobs to an international company."

As for Aer Lingus, it also may be looking to grow its U.S. services even outside the newly announced United pact. AP writes the airline's "Kavanagh said Aer Lingus was 'actively looking' to expand its own trans-Atlantic services from Ireland once again now that fuel prices have plummeted. He said reviving the Los Angeles route was a leading candidate."
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http://www.usatoday.com/travel/flights/item.aspx?type=blog&ak=61815736.blog
 
Again I don't understand how this is "not good". Looks like UA is just helping AerLingus find customers for the IAD to MAD flight. It's an Aerolingus operation backed up by United.
 
It's not good because Aer Lingus is essentially flying the route for United using Aer Lingus' foreign pilots (lower paid pilots) and aircraft.
 
Yeah the first article doesn't make it sound bad but the second one clearly shows that the united pilots are being screwed.
 
Everyday, there are dozens of Asia flights that do not originate or end in the U.S flown by U.S airlines, including United. 777/747/A330s. How come ALPO and the said pilots aren't outraged at that? As long as it's not in my backyard... It's obvious that UA has no interest in this route and they don't fly it anyways. AL has been a partner and it seems UA is trying to help them in the new venture and get some money at the same time. That's the way I look at it.
 
fly8slep said:
Everyday, there are dozens of Asia flights that do not originate or end in the U.S flown by U.S airlines, including United. 777/747/A330s. How come ALPO and the said pilots aren't outraged at that? As long as it's not in my backyard... It's obvious that UA has no interest in this route and they don't fly it anyways. AL has been a partner and it seems UA is trying to help them in the new venture and get some money at the same time. That's the way I look at it.
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Those routes are operated under ICAO fifth freedom rights, and for what ever reason, those countries allow it, and the collective bargining units (if they're even allowed in the country) don't have the scope clause to support it. Interestingly enough, most of those countries don't have a pool of pilots to supply the airline's needs, thus all of the expatriot pilots working for the companies.

If UAL isn't interested in the route, why are they marketing and selling tickets for it using their name?

This agreement has UAL generating revenue, marketing the flight to and from their hub. So UAL has "control" over the route (sounds like the UAL Express Operation, no?). UAL is also furloughing 900 pilots or so? Since longhaul routes require more crewmembers, that would mitigate some more unemployed citizens of the United States of America.

So the company wants to start a new route. Instead of using United Employees on United airplanes (some with that capability are sitting in the desert right now), they are taking the money in, and contracting AerLingus to run the route.
 
fly8slep said:
Again I don't understand how this is "not good". Looks like UA is just helping AerLingus find customers for the IAD to MAD flight. It's an Aerolingus operation backed up by United.
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:banghead:

As if it was bad enough that manufacturing jobs are being outsourced to cheap (re: cheaper) labor (re: sending jobs overseas, decreasing available jobs for qualified Americans). . .now it's okay for them to it to the American pilot profession?

What balls.
 
surreal1221 said:
As if it was bad enough that manufacturing jobs are being outsourced to cheap (re: cheaper) labor (re: sending jobs overseas, decreasing available jobs for qualified Americans).
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Did you read Boeing's outsourcing/787 mea culpa PR?
 
surreal1221 said:
:banghead:

As if it was bad enough that manufacturing jobs are being outsourced to cheap (re: cheaper) labor (re: sending jobs overseas, decreasing available jobs for qualified Americans). . .now it's okay for them to it to the American pilot profession?

What balls.
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Again as I said above, currently there are American 747/777/A330 pilots flying to and from Asian cities. It doesn't matter under what regulations these flight s are operated, the fact is there are US pilots flying what could be flown by the countries respective pilots. It's not fair to be outraged at what might happen here when we are already doing the same thing to other foreign countries and airlines. You can't have it both ways.
 
fly8slep said:
Again as I said above, currently there are American 747/777/A330 pilots flying to and from Asian cities. It doesn't matter under what regulations these flight s are operated, the fact is there are US pilots flying what could be flown by the countries respective pilots. It's not fair to be outraged at what might happen here when we are already doing the same thing to other foreign countries and airlines. You can't have it both ways.
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Yeah but those countries aren't furloughing pilots left and right.
 
fly8slep said:
Again as I said above, currently there are American 747/777/A330 pilots flying to and from Asian cities. It doesn't matter under what regulations these flight s are operated, the fact is there are US pilots flying what could be flown by the countries respective pilots. It's not fair to be outraged at what might happen here when we are already doing the same thing to other foreign countries and airlines. You can't have it both ways.
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Scroll up, and read post #14. I explained it...
 
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