Ironic seeing that come from you..
noise abatement and practice landings
- Thread starter butt
- Start date
Ironic seeing that come from you..
Ralgha
Well-Known Member
It's not even a legal issue! It's a freaking REQUEST that you don't do that. The FAA doesn't give two bags of llama droppings whether you do practice approaches there or not.
The consequence of not complying with the request is most likely NOTHING for you personally. However, it does give ammunition to the community to shut the airport down.
The REQUEST is usually written by a city council that is made of of average Joes and Janes from the local community, especially at small GA airports like that one. Expecting it to be perfect legal prose is patently absurd.
The consequences of being a jerk like you and not following the OBVIOUS intent of the request is that airports get closed.
I really am done in this thread now, you're not worth another second of my time.
The consequence of not complying with the request is most likely NOTHING for you personally. However, it does give ammunition to the community to shut the airport down.
The REQUEST is usually written by a city council that is made of of average Joes and Janes from the local community, especially at small GA airports like that one. Expecting it to be perfect legal prose is patently absurd.
The consequences of being a jerk like you and not following the OBVIOUS intent of the request is that airports get closed.
I really am done in this thread now, you're not worth another second of my time.
One approach and one touch and go in a Cessna is not making a lot of noise, so I am obeying the spirit of the request. If the area was so noise sensitive that just one landing there was going to be a problem, they would have written the policy to state they didn't want anyone to land there at all.
It's all fine and dandy if you all want to go the extra mile and not do anything there at all, but that is not what the request is. If a noise abatement policy states "avoid overflying residential areas", you can go overboard and decide to not fly there at all if thats your prerogative, but the meaning of the policy is still just "don't fly over residential areas". I can't understand why any of you can grasp this obvious concept.
moxiepilot
Well-Known Member
The point trying to be made, Butt, is that the airport is trying not to inconvenience the neighbors with excessive noise.
You may only be one person in a cessna doing one approach and one touch and go, but you are not the only person in the US flying.
Our airport is threatened to be shut down because people moved next to an airport established in 1929!
You think they didn't know about the airport when they moved there? But you know what? They have clout with the local municipality (which also funds our improvements).
We have noise abatement procedures, which are not adhered to by some traffic. Every time someone gets their panties in a bunch due to the noise, we hear about it and ultimately that threatens a lot of peoples livelihoods - including mine.
Let me throw out another point. Life flight helicopters operatoe out of our airport. You know, for the people who get mangled and have to get to the hospital NOW? These people complain about those flights. Flights which are saving people's lives, they are complaining about. Asinine, yes.
The whole point, is not really to argue the technicalities of the legalese in the AFD. Unfortunately I find the threads you participate in a need to get the last word in or continue this ad nausium - (see earlier post).
The answer and opinions have been given. Now let it rest, will ya? You're going to do what you're going to do no matter what we say and what you teach your students.
Turns out many of us can...
You may only be one person in a cessna doing one approach and one touch and go, but you are not the only person in the US flying.
Our airport is threatened to be shut down because people moved next to an airport established in 1929!
You think they didn't know about the airport when they moved there? But you know what? They have clout with the local municipality (which also funds our improvements).
We have noise abatement procedures, which are not adhered to by some traffic. Every time someone gets their panties in a bunch due to the noise, we hear about it and ultimately that threatens a lot of peoples livelihoods - including mine.
Let me throw out another point. Life flight helicopters operatoe out of our airport. You know, for the people who get mangled and have to get to the hospital NOW? These people complain about those flights. Flights which are saving people's lives, they are complaining about. Asinine, yes.
The whole point, is not really to argue the technicalities of the legalese in the AFD. Unfortunately I find the threads you participate in a need to get the last word in or continue this ad nausium - (see earlier post).
The answer and opinions have been given. Now let it rest, will ya? You're going to do what you're going to do no matter what we say and what you teach your students.
Turns out many of us can...
Yes, I understand the concept of noise. I know it can be annoying. This discussion now is about how you all feel I'm in the wrong because I'm not going above and beyond what the noise abatement policy states.
What about the airports that have houses nearby but don't have any noise abatement policies? Am I a jerk for landing at those airports too? Honestly, I can hardly think of a single airport in my area that doesn't have potentially noise sensitive areas nearby. Should I just not fly at night anymore? How above and beyond the rules do I have to go to please you all?
BobDDuck
Island Bus Driver
Ok, I told myself it wasn't worth it because you are the sort that HAS to have the last word. So, if we just weren't to respond this thread would die a nice little death. Unfortunately (and because I am bored) I am going to make one more attempt.
Ok so you and your student are flying over the airport on a nice clear night. Lets look at what options you have. In order to land there you could either shoot an instrument approach or you could shoot a visual approach. According to that ADF directive you can't shoot any practice instrument approaches (which coming down the ILS certainly is when the weather is better then VMC mins). So that leaves you shooting a normal visual approach. Let's say you enter the downwind on the 45 like the good little pilot you are, turn base, turn final and are now short final. You could either, a) continue and land or b) go around. Well, low approaches are prohibited so at this point, you have to land. Now you are rolling out. Options are to either do a touch and go or full stop. Again, you are limited to only a full stop. Now you are clear of the runway. You could either a) taxi to the ramp and shut down or b) taxi back to the top of the runway and do a full length take off. Finally, here, you have two options.
So, as you can see, it really isn't that convoluted. I'm not sure where you are getting confused.
Ok so you and your student are flying over the airport on a nice clear night. Lets look at what options you have. In order to land there you could either shoot an instrument approach or you could shoot a visual approach. According to that ADF directive you can't shoot any practice instrument approaches (which coming down the ILS certainly is when the weather is better then VMC mins). So that leaves you shooting a normal visual approach. Let's say you enter the downwind on the 45 like the good little pilot you are, turn base, turn final and are now short final. You could either, a) continue and land or b) go around. Well, low approaches are prohibited so at this point, you have to land. Now you are rolling out. Options are to either do a touch and go or full stop. Again, you are limited to only a full stop. Now you are clear of the runway. You could either a) taxi to the ramp and shut down or b) taxi back to the top of the runway and do a full length take off. Finally, here, you have two options.
So, as you can see, it really isn't that convoluted. I'm not sure where you are getting confused.
The purpose of this restriction is noise abatement. A visual approach coming from the 45, and an ILS approach both create the same amount of noise. If the ILS creates too much noise, then the 45 entry is too noise as well.
I'm the kind of person that has to know why all the rules I'm following are in place. My mind can't fathom why an airport would restrict an ILS approach because it's too noisy, but deem a 45 entry not noisy enough to be banned. As a result, I made the assumption that the airport's intent of this rule is to not allow multiple approaches and multiple touch and go's.
Whenever you read a rule, don't you try to figure out why the rule is there, or do you just shrug your shoulders and follow the rule regardless? Don't you ever think to yourself "hmm, this doesn't make much sense... Maybe I'm wrong about this... Maybe this means something else..."
It seems to me you all are interpreting this noise abatement policy too literally.
Lets you're at a park and theres a sign that says "no walking on the grass". Now you're walking along a paved pathway and you drop something and it falls into the grass. You try to reach it from the path, but your arm is not long enough. You're going to have to place your foot onto the grass in order to reach the thing you dropped. If you place your foot onto the grass, you're breaking the "no walking on the grass" rule. What do you do? Do you spend 20 minutes looking for a stick to reach it with? Do you grab your cell phone to call the park manager to get permission to walk on the grass?
No, you use your brain to determine what exactly is meant by the rule. Which is what I'm doing with this noise policy...
I think you should listen to yourself more.
Stone Cold
Well-Known Member
Butt, my ignore list was lonely...welcome to it!!! NO 
EDUC8-or
Well-Known Member
You obviously haven't been using it that much. An ILS is going to create more noise. An ILS usually has a 3 degree glideslope, so at 4 miles from the runway you should be at 1200, 3 miles out 900, 2 miles 600, and 1 mile 300. It's been a while since my Cessna days, but if I remember correctly it's done at flaps 10 and 90 knots until short final (less than 1 mile). You are lower to the ground farther out with higher power settings than a normal traffic pattern where you should be at approximately 1500RPM abeam the numbers and you shouldn't be flying much more than a 1 mile final. If done properly, a normal pattern entry will create less noise away from the airport than an ILS.