No touch and go for you!

Bernoulli Fan

Bernoulli Fan

Controller
A student and I were doing touch and goes recently. A Piaggio was sequenced behind us and when we were on about a 3/4 mile final, the controller stated he was unable to give us a touch and go. The first taxiway turnoff is 2200' down the runway. Wouldn't it actually have been faster to do a touch and go?
 
Perhaps if you had done your T&G, were still on the upwind leg, and for whatever reason the Piaggio had to go around, his speed vs yours would have him overtaking you relatively quickly. Maybe from the controllers perspective he'd rather have you on the ground and force the Piaggio to go around with out anyone in front of him in the air....I dunno, just what popped into my head.
 
Bernoulli Fan said:
A student and I were doing touch and goes recently. A Piaggio was sequenced behind us and when we were on about a 3/4 mile final, the controller stated he was unable to give us a touch and go. The first taxiway turnoff is 2200' down the runway. Wouldn't it actually have been faster to do a touch and go?
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Yup that's definitely weird. The P180 is a quick little airplane but it's still a Category II with respect to same runway separation. That means that the controller only needed you to be 4500 feet down the runway and airborne by the time the P180 crossed the threashold. There's no doubt a touch and go would have been quicker than a full stop.

Maybe were training in the tower?
 
Bernoulli Fan said:
A student and I were doing touch and goes recently. A Piaggio was sequenced behind us and when we were on about a 3/4 mile final, the controller stated he was unable to give us a touch and go. The first taxiway turnoff is 2200' down the runway. Wouldn't it actually have been faster to do a touch and go?
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I don't get it. The controller only approved a full stop? No low approach or go around? Seems like if you wanted the option he would have cleared you for a low approach or sent you around. Forcing a full stop, which I doubt is even legal, is the least effective "out" in this situation. On the other hand, maybe the pattern was full and at his limits or visibility was reduced to the point that the VFR pattern was closed. Could be a number of things I guess. When you landed did you ask for a reason at all?

HD
 
HiDef said:
I don't get it. The controller only approved a full stop? No low approach or go around? Seems like if you wanted the option he would have cleared you for a low approach or sent you around. Forcing a full stop, which I doubt is even legal, is the least effective "out" in this situation. On the other hand, maybe the pattern was full and at his limits or visibility was reduced to the point that the VFR pattern was closed. Could be a number of things I guess. When you landed did you ask for a reason at all?

HD
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:yeahthat:

I mean at the least if somebody had to go around just get him to turn away from pattern direction and problem better solved than forcing a full stop
 
HiDef said:
On the other hand, maybe the pattern was full and at his limits or visibility was reduced to the point that the VFR pattern was closed.

HD
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The pattern was getting fairly busy (4-5, with random full-stops coming in from several directions), so maybe that was it.

As for landing 800' before the turnoff, if you can get your primary students to do that...:laff:

I was going to call the tower and ask, but then I got busy with my next student, so I figured I'd come to the second-best source of info!
 
Our airport will clear to land only when we do opposing practice approaches to the active runway. Usually just have to hold for like 30 seconds or so on the runway for the traffic to clear on the missed then continue.

Didn't want to hijack the thread but can a controller clear you to land only and not accept touch and goes? There was a situation about a month ago where I held in the practice area for over 15 minutes because the pattern was full of touch and goes.
 
Yes,

It's even specifically addressed in the 7110.65

7110.65 Chapter 3 said:
3-10-11. CLOSED TRAFFIC
Approve/disapprove pilot requests to remain in closed traffic for successive operations subject to local traffic conditions. ​

PHRASEOLOGY-
LEFT/RIGHT (if required) CLOSED TRAFFIC APPROVED. REPORT (position if required),​

or​


UNABLE CLOSED TRAFFIC, (additional information as required).
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Also procedures regarding an option clearance. I used to use this one all the time when an aircraft was requesting the option but traffic was pretty tight behind him. "...Cherokee 5PA unable stop and go, other options approved."​

7110.65 Chapter 3 said:
3-8-1. SEQUENCE/SPACING APPLICATION
Establish the sequence of arriving and departing aircraft by requiring them to adjust flight or ground operation, as necessary, to achieve proper spacing. ​

PHRASEOLOGY-
...CLEARED FOR THE OPTION,​

or​

OPTION APPROVED,​

or​

UNABLE OPTION, (alternate instructions).​

or​

UNABLE (type of option), OTHER OPTIONS
APPROVED.​

NOTE-
1. The "Cleared for the Option" procedure will permit an instructor pilot/flight examiner/pilot the option to make a touch-and-go, low approach, missed approach, stop- and-go, or full stop landing. This procedure will only be used at those locations with an operational control tower and will be subject to ATC approval. ​
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jdlilfan said:
Our airport will clear to land only when we do opposing practice approaches to the active runway. Usually just have to hold for like 30 seconds or so on the runway for the traffic to clear on the missed then continue.

Didn't want to hijack the thread but can a controller clear you to land only and not accept touch and goes? There was a situation about a month ago where I held in the practice area for over 15 minutes because the pattern was full of touch and goes.
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The old "cleared stop and go, I'll call your go" trick huh?:D

HD
 
MikeD said:
Grrrr....People that stretch out the pattern!!!! Turn it into a C-141 pattern!
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How about Helicopters that do touch and go's on the runway with 5 planes in the pattern and hover for almost a minute before they get out of there? Now THAT pisses me off.
 
PilotChip said:
"Cleared to land" is a forced full stop (other than an uncoordinated go around); Completely legal.
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If you want to be literal, cleared to land is an authorization for an aircraft to land. Nothing about forcing the pilot to land in the definition or it being mandatory.

HD
 
Exactly. You're not authorized to complete any other runway operation except a missed approach to landing (aka go around). I used the term forced landing from previous text for referencing the idea.
 
There are times when a controller feels the pattern is getting full and needs someone to bow out for a circuit. We kick F16's out of the pattern all the time if they are impeding others from completing their respective requests. Its a balancing act and most controllers worth their salt try to spread it out equally. Granted those selected to full stop to alleviate some congestion feel slighted, but we do our best to keep everyone moving and accomplish what they need to do. Feel free to call the tower anywhere you are if you dont like the situation. After all thats what its about, we provide a service. If you are unhappy CALL. Im not being flippid.
 
jdlilfan said:
Our airport will clear to land only when we do opposing practice approaches to the active runway. Usually just have to hold for like 30 seconds or so on the runway for the traffic to clear on the missed then continue.

Didn't want to hijack the thread but can a controller clear you to land only and not accept touch and goes? There was a situation about a month ago where I held in the practice area for over 15 minutes because the pattern was full of touch and goes.
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If you were an "Itinerant" aircraft ie full stop lander, there is NO excuse for holding you. Pattern traffic is to be approved/disapproved as itinerant traffic permits. That is book.
 
subpilot said:
You can always do a go around. No approval required!
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Obviously the full-stop was for runway separation reasons. As you stated...you can always do a go around. That is correct! Once you do a go around, ATC's separation is done. We no longer owe you any sort of separation. So we were trying to give you the separation that we owed you...but then you went around. Now it just means that you could have a very fast airplane up your a$$ and we don't give 2 damns about it. Good luck...since your a go-around and all.

I tried to protect you with some separation....but u deemed it better to just "go around". So here you C150...enjoy a freaking CL30 up your ass with NO protection of separation!! ha ha.
 
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