never seen that before!

Timbuff10

Timbuff10

Well-Known Member
Hey guys so, I'm sitting here at work looking out of my tower at the runways here in Denver and we are getting alot of biz jet traffic today due to the NCAAs. I watch an aircraft, I think it was a King Air, taxi out from the signature biz jet center straight over to the runway on one of the high speed taxiways and start its takeoff roll. The thing that was odd is that there was probably 4000' of runway behind this guy when he took the active and started his roll. Still left him with 8000' to takeoff on but why takeoff with runway behind you?

Anyone ever heard of doing that before? Wonder who got that request going. ATC or the pilot?
 
Probably the pilot requested it. I had an instructor once that, instead of taking the 5 minutes to taxi to the end of a 9000' RW, opt for an intersection takeoff which left us with 1900' of RW remaining...

Something you don't see everyday (on the ground in a 172)... the TDZE Markers from the OPPOSITE runway!
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Yeah, happens all the time in the corporate world. Maybe they were empty and didnt need 12,000 feet when 8000 was more then enough anyways. Or maybe ATC said they could get them out earlier if they would take it, any number of things could be the reason.

Doesnt happen much in the 121 world except you may see us able to take like the next to last taxiway or something like that where your talking about 3oo feet or something. All has to be checked by performance data. Cape Air on the other hand takes Intersection takeoffs all them time in BOS it seems. Its got them in trouble before too.
 
Many times at O'Hare they are departing 32R from the T10 intersection with 8,800 ft remaining of the 13,000 ft runway...

Happens all the time (including the 121 world)...

If my BFL is 4,000 ft I will take an intersection departure if I have at least 150% of my BFL remaining (6,000 ft). (Once I am past V1 I am taking it into the air regardless, so any extra runway isn't going to make much of a difference.)
 
ahhh i just watched another King air do the same thing and about 30 second later an AA MD80 landed on that same runway. Now as i type this a BAE146 is touching down with a citation heading toward that same spot to takeoff with runway behind him. I guess it does happen alot, I just never noticed it before.

Seems like all these biz jets would rather fly into APA or BJC instead of the expensive DEN?
 
Hey im doing my work, the Frontier operation is running smooth today.

Cant say the same for Mesa at the moment. They have one of their Dash8s parked on the runway with about 5 firetrucks around it and it looks like they are putting their pax on busses to get them back to the terminal. Not good!
 
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Seems like all these biz jets would rather fly into APA or BJC instead of the expensive DEN?

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It isn't the cost, but APA is much more convenient than DEN...

I have flown many times into every major airport in the US (ABQ, ATL, BOS, CLE, DAL, DCA, DEN, DFW, DTW, EWR, FTW, HOU, IAD, IAH, ICT, IND, JFK, LAS, LAX, LGA, MCO, MDW, MEM, MIA, MKE, MSP, NEW, OKC, OMA, ORD, PDX, PHL, PHX, PIT, SAN, SEA, SFO, SLC, STL, TOL, TPA) and would take a satellite airport anyday over going into the major airport... The Satellite airports offer much more convenience, and quicker in and outs... Less traffic means faster service...
 
exactly!

Yeah APA is alot closer to the city than DEN and way easier to get to. Also I know that DEN has much higher landing fees than APA or BJC. Thats why I dont understand why they are all coming into DEN?
 
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Many times at O'Hare they are departing 32R from the T10 intersection with 8,800 ft remaining of the 13,000 ft runway...

Happens all the time (including the 121 world)...

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32L,T10 intersection. In any case, it is not some pilot's calculation which enables them to depart from this intersection. It is a written performance based on weight, winds, inop equipment, and all of that approved by the FAA (Father of All Aviators).
 
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Many times at O'Hare they are departing 32L from the T10 intersection with 8,800 ft remaining of the 13,000 ft runway...

Happens all the time (including the 121 world)...

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32L,T10 intersection. In any case, it is not some pilot's calculation which enables them to depart from this intersection. It is a written performance based on weight, winds, inop equipment, and all of that approved by the FAA (Father of All Aviators).

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Performance IS a pilot based calculation...
 
I think what he is saying is that performance data is given to us, in 121 (at my company at least). When ATC ask if we can take X intersection for departure we dont go into warp calculation mode and crunch numbers to see if we can do it, we basically look and see if its on our performance numbers, if its listed we then check to make sure out weight does not exceed the max for that intersection. All the numbers are already done for us in the performance data given to us on the release.
 
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I think what he is saying is that performance data is given to us, in 121 (at my company at least). When ATC ask if we can take X intersection for departure we dont go into warp calculation mode and crunch numbers to see if we can do it, we basically look and see if its on our performance numbers, if its listed we then check to make sure out weight does not exceed the max for that intersection. All the numbers are already done for us in the performance data given to us on the release.

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I understand that, all of our performance calculations are done prior to engine start also... If ATC asks if we can take an intersection, we look at our BFL (and any applicable SID or DP to ensure req'd climb gradients) and give them an answer based on that... However, we use 150% of our BFL to accept intersection take-offs (we are legal at 100%).

Whether a dispatcher calculates the numbers or the pilot calculates the numbers, it is still a calculated figure. Personally when it comes to my ass, I like to calculate my own numbers...
 
We can do intersection departures, as long as they are pre-programmed in our weight and balance/performance on-board computer. If they aren't, then we cannot.

There is actually one runway in our database that requires a back-taxi of 600 feet (13 at SPI) since the end of the taxiway is before the calculated runway distance. We can't legally depart from the taxiway at the end since it's not in our computer.
 
The USAF doesn't like the whole "runway behind us" issue. Plus, it's rather impractical, with the Last Chance arm/dearm areas normally being at the runway ends. Even so, with an airport that has a runway without a taxiway leading to the beginning, we're supposed to enter and backtaxi into position.

Another oddity for us: We're prohibited (all USAF aircraft) from participating in LAHSO. Don't know the exact reason behind that one. Am curious now, though.
 
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