Navy F-18 Jet Crash in Neighborhood Near Miramar (marine?)

Re: Navy F-18 Jet Crash in Neighborhood Near Miramar (marine

Sidenote:

During Hayne's presentation in LAS at NetworkJC a few months ago, he actually bought a surviving passenger with him. Holy cow, it was powerful and about the only time you'd see Captain Haynes break down a little.

Freaking powerful. That guy is certainly an American Hero.
 
Re: Navy F-18 Jet Crash in Neighborhood Near Miramar (marine

Doug Taylor said:
Sidenote:

During Hayne's presentation in LAS at NetworkJC a few months ago, he actually bought a surviving passenger with him. Holy cow, it was powerful and about the only time you'd see Captain Haynes break down a little.

Freaking powerful. That guy is certainly an American Hero.
Click to expand...

I wanted to go to that so bad just to see Haynes speak, unfortunately I was broke.
 
Re: Navy F-18 Jet Crash in Neighborhood Near Miramar (marine

Oh, me too. Ramp up the event right as the economy was ramping down. Yowza.
 
Re: Navy F-18 Jet Crash in Neighborhood Near Miramar (marine

ATOflyer said:
Video
http://www.cnn.com/2008/US/12/09/military.jet.crash/index.html?iref=mpstoryview#cnnSTCVideo

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A Korean immigrant who lost his wife, two children and mother-in-law when a Marine Corps jet slammed into the family's house said Tuesday he did not blame the pilot, who ejected and survived.

"Please pray for him not to suffer from this accident," a distraught Dong Yun Yoon told reporters gathered near the site of Monday's crash of an F/A-18D jet in San Diego's University City community.

"He is one of our treasures for the country," Yoon said in accented English punctuated by long pauses while he tried to maintain his composure.
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What a tradgedy. This man just lost his wife, 2 month old, 15 month old, and mother in law. RIP. I feel so bad for this man - truly brave and a class act.
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+1 I don't think I could handle that situation quite the same.
 
Re: Navy F-18 Jet Crash in Neighborhood Near Miramar (marine

ppragman said:
You'd think that you'd want some sort of way to control a power off descent.
Click to expand...

In a twin-engined fighter, that's not a highly likely emergency. If you lose one engine, you're gonna come home before you lose the other one. In a jet like the F-16, they have to address the potential of a dead-stick landing (hence the hydrazene Emergency Power Unit on that jet). You can't design a warplane's systems to be able to have a backup for EVERY emergency. It's a combat aircraft -- that weight is better used for offensive, defensive, weapons systems, fuel, countermeasures, etc.

ppragman said:
are most fighters equipped with hydraulically actuated flight controls? Because it would seem to me that unless the hydraulic lines are incredibly shield, have numerous back ups, and aren't very susceptible to being penetrated by bullets it would be fairly easy to bring one down provided it didn't get you first. Just shooting in the dark here.
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The only current fighter that has a manual backup flght control system (one that does not require any hydro power) is the A-10.

The problem is the immense force that it takes to move a huge control surface the amount of deflection required to move a fighter around. It's not feasible for a cable-and-pulley system to be able to work. Earlier fighters like the F-86 and F-100 had manual flight controls with hydraulic boost, but the boosted controls just can't deflect a surface far enough and fast enough for good maneuverability.
 
Re: Navy F-18 Jet Crash in Neighborhood Near Miramar (marine

Hacker15e said:
In a twin-engined fighter, that's not a highly likely emergency. If you lose one engine, you're gonna come home before you lose the other one. In a jet like the F-16, they have to address the potential of a dead-stick landing (hence the hydrazene Emergency Power Unit on that jet). You can't design a warplane's systems to be able to have a backup for EVERY emergency. It's a combat aircraft -- that weight is better used for offensive, defensive, weapons systems, fuel, countermeasures, etc.



The only current fighter that has a manual backup flght control system (one that does not require any hydro power) is the A-10.

The problem is the immense force that it takes to move a huge control surface the amount of deflection required to move a fighter around. It's not feasible for a cable-and-pulley system to be able to work. Earlier fighters like the F-86 and F-100 had manual flight controls with hydraulic boost, but the boosted controls just can't deflect a surface far enough and fast enough for good maneuverability.
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Interesting, thanks hacker. I guess at 400kts the required control pressure would be a little more than a finger's touch. Is the A-10's use of manual back ups due to the fact that it typically operates at lower speeds, or because it is just designed to take so many hits that they figured they better not have it set up to leak out?

BTW, I know that the AN-2 has pneumatic brakes, and that the russians in general like pneumatics for reasons of the cold, I wonder if they do that in larger production fighters and transports. Anybody know?
 
Re: Navy F-18 Jet Crash in Neighborhood Near Miramar (marine

I want to thank all of you for being so receptive to my views. I respect pilots very much. You all have some of the highest preesure and most important jobs in the world. My posts on accident safety is simply of all the years as a firefighter and safety engineer and I have seen, responded, and investigated my share of plane accidents.

Its nice that you all have seemed to respect my posts. I really appreciate that. This is one of the best boards I have been involved with. If any of you need safety help or information an any crahs, please feel free to contact me.

And, I still hope that everything works out.

Fly high, fly safe, and again thank you all. :rawk:

Safetyengineer
erich@safeworkinc.com
Safety Engineer- Paramedic/Firefighter
 
Re: Navy F-18 Jet Crash in Neighborhood Near Miramar (marine

Most modern fighter jets have EPU's (emmergency power units) on the F-16 if I remember well it is run by Hydrazine (highly toxic) hence the need for hazmat teams to respond. The Epu usualy allows the pilot to still maintain some sort of control.
 
Re: Navy F-18 Jet Crash in Neighborhood Near Miramar (marine

The government can be sued, and is sued constantly. It's how you get things into the courts, otherwise how would people get things to the supreme court when the government makes a law that's unconstitutional?

No idea how the test went, could have gotten a 140, could have gotten a 160; I'll find out January 5th.
 
Re: Navy F-18 Jet Crash in Neighborhood Near Miramar (marine

melax said:
Most modern fighter jets have EPU's (emmergency power units) on the F-16 if I remember well it is run by Hydrazine (highly toxic) hence the need for hazmat teams to respond. The Epu usualy allows the pilot to still maintain some sort of control.
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The EPU is a F-16-specific system because the aircraft is a single-engine jet.

McDonnell Douglas multiengine fighter jets like the Hornet and Eagle have emergency electrical generators, but they are powered by the hydraulic system.

If you lost hydraulics -- by losing both engines -- you're outta luck.

There are tons and tons of other toxic and dangerous materials, chemicals, and fluids on a fighter jet that necessitate a HAZMAT response when one crashes.
 
Re: Navy F-18 Jet Crash in Neighborhood Near Miramar (marine

Here's a forward I got today:

I had coffee with XXX the other day and he told us about the F-18. XXX is flying for the Air Combat operation out of Fullerton and is a former F-18 pilot. The fellow who heads up the Fullerton operation is the father of the pilot involved in the crash. The story is he lost the first engine while doing Carrier op's off the coast. Since he was fairly new to the airplane they decided to send him to North Island. On approach to North Island they decided that he had enough fuel and told him to bring it into Miramar where they had better maintenance. They told him to keep it dirty because they didn't want to overwork the remaining hydraulic pump. On final the second engine overheated and rolled down. Apparently the engine has some type of overheat protection and will just shutdown. He rode it down to 400-600 feet and ejected.
 
Re: Navy F-18 Jet Crash in Neighborhood Near Miramar (marine

not good...passed up a perfectly good airport for a better mx base...Hopefully the Navy is different...That would get your ticket punched the civilian world.

Seems like the overheat protection should be overrideable in a combat aircraft. I would hate to go down behind enemy lines because the engine didn't wanted to save itself.
 
Re: Navy F-18 Jet Crash in Neighborhood Near Miramar (marine

Here are some things you may want to know or at least keep in mind.

The US Navy (and USMC, which is the department of the Navy) will launch a JAGMIN investigation into the incident. This will be in addition to private and other government and military investigations that will take place concurently.

The Department Of The Navy will estimate what the income of the members in the household would have been over the course of the a normal lifetime and include the price of the property lost and offer a settlement based on this. The homeowner does not have to accept.

The Government can be sued, especially if the pilot had an alternate place to land where he could have made it safely, but was ordered to divert to a specific base or airport instead. The pilot could be sued if the JAGMIN investigation shows he was negligent in anyway, and if he was NCIS will look into criminal charges. (On a sidebar, it sounds that the pilot tried everything to keep the fighter from hitting the more populated area of the housing track. He was trying to make it to the canyon.)

Lastly, lets not loose sight on the fact the homeowner understood that this was an ACCIDENT. He forgave the pilot. The pilot is affected like the homeowner as he knows he is responsible for four deaths. The investigation will take time and I ask that everyone reserve judgement until the facts are in. Please be respectful and paitent.

Personnaly, I salute all of the military pilots out there that do an impossible job in a time that is hard to function in. I also take my hat off to all civilian pilots as you have one of the most stressful and responsible jobs out there. I respect all of you and stand in awe in the amazing situations you handle everyday. Thank all of you.

Lastly, speaking of United 232 and Al Haynes, WOW. That is a required accident to study as an investigator as it shows how CRM is suppose to work and professionals remaining focused in a tough situation. Simulators have not been able to recreate the incident with success to this day. Angels where under the wings that day. KUDOS to the crew of flight 232. As with United 232, this accident could have been much worse. Think about that.

Respectfully,
Safetyengineer

Stay safe, fly high, and keep the faith. :rawk:
 
Re: Navy F-18 Jet Crash in Neighborhood Near Miramar (marine

This is still under investigation. You expect patience with civilian accidents, the same needs to applied in this case.

The F/A-18 can go a lot further than a few miles on single engine.

The hydraulics only run off only one engine.
 
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