Navigator and Flying?
- Thread starter heeha
- Start date
The Fez
Analog Millennial
I'll defer to a Nav for a more detailed explanation, but the AF currently trains Nav's to do the very basic functions of takeoff and landing during the Initial Flight Screening Program. I don't know what's covered during their actual training at Randolph.
However, given their propensity to piss me off while they acted as "pilots" in Predators, I'd rate their flying skills as marginal...at best.
However, given their propensity to piss me off while they acted as "pilots" in Predators, I'd rate their flying skills as marginal...at best.
fish314
Well-Known Member
I think some of the WSO's in the two seat fighters may have access to flight controls and some very rudimentary pilot skills for just the sort of emergency you are thinking of. I remember a pilot training student of mine who was a former 15E WSO talking about nav-vs-nav BFM being kind of an ugly but fun exercise and an excuse for pilots to laugh at their WSOs.
If they have any "piloting" experience and skill, it's probably not a whole lot. But you'd probably need to talk to someone closer than my poorly remembered 3rd hand account to tell you for sure.
As for the heavies, the Navs (and the other non-pilot crew members, for that matter... boom operators, FE's, Load Masters, etc.) have pretty much no flying experience. Even the ones with private pilots licenses don't have any experience flying the airplane they are Nav'ing on. And a heavy is a whole different kettle of fish than a light GA airplane. For the most part, they've got about the same chance of safely landing the airplane in the event of two incapacitated pilots, as a private pilot would have on a commerical airliner; probably not going to make a safe landing, but maybe "safe-ish" enough that there are survivors.
If they have any "piloting" experience and skill, it's probably not a whole lot. But you'd probably need to talk to someone closer than my poorly remembered 3rd hand account to tell you for sure.
As for the heavies, the Navs (and the other non-pilot crew members, for that matter... boom operators, FE's, Load Masters, etc.) have pretty much no flying experience. Even the ones with private pilots licenses don't have any experience flying the airplane they are Nav'ing on. And a heavy is a whole different kettle of fish than a light GA airplane. For the most part, they've got about the same chance of safely landing the airplane in the event of two incapacitated pilots, as a private pilot would have on a commerical airliner; probably not going to make a safe landing, but maybe "safe-ish" enough that there are survivors.
bunk22
Well-Known Member
No.
As a loadmaster, I may or may not have some stick time in the 130. Can't say I logged it though.
As for Navs flying aircraft, definitely not on the C-130, I think we'd be better off with the incapacitated pilot than have a Nav take controls. Besides, we DO have a co-pilot, once in awhile the AC lets them land.
fish314
Well-Known Member
As a loadmaster, I may or may not have some stick time in the 130. Can't say I logged it though.
At the end of our yearly CRM sim (the only ones that the booms have to do) we usually let them take a chance at flying the sim and trying to land. It's always good for a giggle. I've never seen on do a good landing, but I've seen some crashes that might have been survivable. I've heard stories of some other crew members having stick time way back in the day in the actual aircraft... way illegal, of course, always with one pilot in the other seat and never admitted to in public.
In my jet, about the only thing that I think just about any boom probably could do in the event of 2 incapacitated pilots, is put the autopilot on and get talked down to a lower altitude, but not to a landing (no autoland feature). Of course I can't see any scenarios that would incapacitate both pilots simultaneously, but not incapacitate the entire crew. Maybe a decompressed scenario where the boom is on a walk-around bottle in the back, and the pilots are on main aircraft O2 and they let the main supply deplete without realizing it. It would have to be something exceedingly rare like that, though.
Talking fighter-type aircraft, in the USN/USMC they don't even have a set of flight controls they could use.....save maybe for the former S-3 Viking, where the right seater was an NFO.
In USAF F-series aircraft, they have a duplicate set of controls in the rear cockpit (right side cockpit in case of F-111....but not in the EF-111), and I've heard many pilots say they've been able to train the WSOs to at least get the plane on the ground and snag runway arresting gear. Hacker would definitely be the authority word on that though, since in his airframe he flies with them.
Some aircraft, even with duplicate controls in the rear, don't have all the controls in the rear. IIRC in the F-4E, the backseat I didn't have a landing gear handle (only an emergency gear handle), had only an emergency brake handle, and no arrestor hook control. Still, visibility wasn't great around the pilot's ejection seat; and in the F-4G model is nearly non-existant, as the instrument panel continues atop the dash panel and up to the canopy sill. Still, it has been done a good few times where planes have been successfully landed by a WSO after pilot incapcitation, where the WSO just flies formation off a lead aircraft (negating the need to look forward), and holds position to touchdown......I know specifically of an Idaho ANG RF-4C where that had to be done in the '80s, following a birdstrike on an IR route that hit the pilot. RSO (what RF WSOs are known as) took control and landed the jet on a formation approach with another and took the arresting gear.
In the USN, the NFO never has a chance because there again, are no controls normally available.
Heavy aircraft.....the explanation has been given by those that know better here.
Here's a MOH citation from WWII, where a B-17 Navigator and FE attempted to land their damaged B-17 with it's wounded pilot aboard, following being attacked by enemy fighters, righting their out-of-control B-17, and flying it all the way from Germany back to Britain to their base:
http://www.homeofheroes.com/moh/citations_1940_wwii/truemper.html
Nihon_Ni
Well-Known Member
No. (Mostly "No")
In the Prowler, there's only one set of controls. If I was in the front and the pilot became too incapacitated to fly the plane, I'd "fly" it by command ejecting everyone.
In the back left seat, if you have long arms (like me) you can reach behind the ejection seat and grab the control rods and fly the plane that way. Up and down on one rod for left and right stick, and up and down on the other for forward and back stick. I've done it as a trick to make pilots uncomfortable and for bragging rights, but you could never land the plane that way because it's not a natural way to manipulate flight controls, you can't move the throttle, and oh yeah, you can't see forward.
Most NFOs I've know don't have a pilot license. Several NFOs in my Q squadron were pilots and a few owned airplanes, but that wasn't the norm. I'd say 10% or less are rated pilots. Even so, the ability to land a tactical jet if a crisis happened would be more about luck than skill if you never train for that crisis (which we don't do).
In my current squadron, I'm somewhat of an anomaly. I'm an NFO flying as a C-12 copilot (my official designation is "Observer") with more flight time and ratings than most of the pilots who sign for the plane. I hold a CPL S&MEL, IA, CFI/MEI/CFII and a BE-20 type rating while most of the other pilots are helo guys who haven't flown a fixed wing airplane since the were 2ndLts in flight school. I've found myself providing a lot of instruction on crosswind landings, short field techniques, and a variety of other airplane-specific tasks. An NFO teaching pilots how to fly...go figure.
I could land the C-12, but not a Prowler. Then again, I'm probably the exception to the rule.