My first near death experience....

There is always the old debate about not making straight in approaches at uncontrolled fields. Technically, they are legal. In this situation we can see where a potential hazard popped up.

The guy was wrong to turn base without you in sight, definitely - but who is "right or wrong" doesn't matter after the crash.

I think MikeD has once again shown wisdom (he does that a lot!) about the positive deconfliction.

I bet next time you say "hey don't turn base until you have me in sight ok?"
 
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So Im coming into CTJ from CSG, which is due south, and I am making a straight in final for RW 35.

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It always surprises me when pilots do straight-in approaches in busy uncontrolled airports. Why not do a std 45 degrees entry?
 
I remember this being debated alot ... I have always just over flew the field and entered on a 45. But you guys do bring up a great point... sunday was a great day to fly and I couldn't believe the number of pilots out making calls to the wrong airport... not talking in the pattern.. or little things like when I started up the pilot before left the transponder on ALT... stuff I guess I"m just always making sure I"m aware of.

Mike D also brought up a good situation awareness point that I didn't start doing until I switched cfi's.. that is also stating the direction that I'm flying in addition to the usual who / where / what I'm going to be doing... It does help build a better overall picture of the flow at an airport when u start listening a few miles out prior to pattern entry...
 
Glad that the event turned out with everyone safe on the ground. The safest bet at an uncontrolled field is to enter the pattern from the 45. Really the only time you should do a strait in, is if your on an IAP that calls for a strait in approach.
 
My opinoin on the matter is...

Always enter on the 45 to the downwind, unless there is some urgent situation or emergancy to attend to. The AIM recommends this for a reason. SAFETY!


I realize there is no REG that says to do this, but it just makes sense! Everyone knows where you'll be (to a point) and all the traffic is flowing in the same direction. Not coming in from every which direction and at any altitude.

I stress this to my students, and it was stressed to me all during my training...
 
My personal Standard Operating Procedure is: VFR days, whenever there is anyone else in the pattern I will enter on the 45 to downwind to join the flow. I've even broken off from three-to-five mile finals when someone else calls in that they are entering the pattern, since I'm assuming they just joined the frequency and don't know that I'm doing a straight-in, and I don't want to set up a potential conflict. And I don't want to have to work through the confusion of explaining where I am, who's closest or lowest, who's going to land first, and what the other guy's going to do..... I'd rather lose a couple of minutes and put my plane in a position that the other guy is expecting (standard entry to a complete pattern). No suprises, no loud noises.

If there is no one talking on CTAF I may do a straight-in final approach (or enter on the base leg, or whatever is easiest), but my head will be on a swivel and I will assume that there is a NORDO in the pattern.

IFR or marginal VFR I'll fly what works best for getting on the ground safely with no unnecessary maneuvering (still watching for the NORDO guys doing pattern work...)

That's what works for me....
 
I pretty much always enter on the 45 just to save my butt. Even doing that you still sometimes run into problems. On Saturday, there was a guy calling entering on the 45 for runway 16, but the guy was flying the pattern for 34. I'm like, uh, okay, should I follow you for 16 or are you going to follow me, and he then realized his mistake and said I'll follow you.

If he didn't figure it out, I was going to just break off the approach and then say something like, is the runway in use 16 or 34? That way I subtly tell him, hey, dude, don't announce 16 if you're going for 34!
 
Sometime last summer, I was in the pattern at my home airport after coming back from a cross country. I entered the downwind on a 45, and get established in the downwind when someone comes up and says "N12345 on 2 mile final 23 Bay City." I think to myself "Wait a second, I just came off the approach frequency, and I've been talking in the pattern this whole time. Where did this guy come from?" I called "Bay City traffic N54321 left downwind 23 negative contact on the traffic, we'll extend for spacing." I start looking for this guy, and what do I see?

Nothing.

By time this time I'm about 2 miles past the runway, and I've gotta do something. I asked where N12345 was and he said "3 mile final, the plane's late getting in and someone is using it after me, I've gotta get it in right now." So I go and exit the pattern away from where this guy should be so I can get myself resituated. I come back around, enter on the 45 again for the left downwind and call where I'm at. Know what this guy says? "N12345 2 mile final 23 Bay City." Turns out that this SOB was on an 8 mile fine in his approach configuration flying 70 knots in a 152. Someone else was trying to get into the pattern too, but heard all this go on and started doing 360's outside of the pattern.

Moral of the story? Enter on a frigging 45 to the downwind, or for all I care; the upwind. Just get yourself into a rectangle around the airport so people can figure out where you are. Inless you're flying something fast, don't do a straight in. And more than anything, don't be like this guy that decided that an 8 mile final at 70 knots was the thing to do, "because someone else was using the plane after him." It's a bunch of BS, and could have involved two airplanes in a midair.

Cheers


John Herreshoff
 
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Moral of the story? Enter on a frigging 45 to the downwind, or for all I care; the upwind. Just get yourself into a rectangle around the airport so people can figure out where you are. Inless you're flying something fast, don't do a straight in. And more than anything, don't be like this guy that decided that an 8 mile final at 70 knots was the thing to do, "because someone else was using the plane after him." It's a bunch of BS, and could have involved two airplanes in a midair.

John Herreshoff

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If you're going to enter on a straight in, which is completely legal, at LEAST have your mileage calls correct using DME, GPD, or landmarks. Or, you can enter on the initial for an overhead maneuver.
 
Legal yes, but is it safe? There always is the matter of legal but unsafe and with most of the idiot GA pilots flying around out there I would say that in most cases if there is anyone else around it is anything but. Just my experience, though.

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Or, you can enter on the initial for an overhead maneuver.

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What's that mean?

Cheers


John Herreshoff
 
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Legal yes, but is it safe? There always is the matter of legal but unsafe and with most of the idiot GA pilots flying around out there I would say that in most cases if there is anyone else around it is anything but. Just my experience, though.

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Sure it's safe to fly a straight-in, IF the person performing it is making the correct calls, has the appropriate SA, and is maintaining vigilence. I'd fly a straight-in any day, if it was convenient, and (SA here) I deemed it wouldn't upset the traffic flow. Obviously at a CTAF field where the pattern is pretty busy, I'd tend to lean more towards the side of "going with the flow". But that's just me.

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Or, you can enter on the initial for an overhead maneuver.

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What's that mean?

Cheers


John Herreshoff

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Darn civilian pilots.....
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Overhead is what you see the mil aircraft perform. Normally flown at 1500 AGL pattern alt. They come upwind (initial) and pitch out (break) into the downwind where they slow and configure. Performed correctly, it looks like an oval; from initial to touchdown, or if flown nice and tight, a circle, from approach end pitchout to touchdown. Perfectly legit for civilian planes to fly too. Just another way of entering the pattern. Comm goes like this:

"Willie twr, Hog 11, 8 south for initial, with Papa."

"Hog 11, Willie tower, report 5 mile initial Rwy 12L"

"5 initial for 12L, Hog 11"

On initial:

"Hog 11, 5 mile initial (or 4/3/2/short initial if the freq is congested), full-stop/option"

"Hog 11, midfield left break, traffic single BE76 downwind abeam"

Following the break and slowed/configured on downwind abeam:

"Hog 11, base, gear, stop/option."

From the pilot/controller glossary:

OVERHEAD MANEUVER- A series of predetermined maneuvers prescribed for aircraft (often in formation) for entry into the visual flight rules (VFR) traffic pattern and to proceed to a landing. An overhead maneuver is not an instrument flight rules (IFR) approach procedure. An aircraft executing an overhead maneuver is considered VFR and the IFR flight plan is cancelled when the aircraft reaches the "initial point" on the initial approach portion of the maneuver. The pattern usually specifies the following:

a. The radio contact required of the pilot.

b. The speed to be maintained.

c. An initial approach 3 to 5 miles in length.

d. An elliptical pattern consisting of two 180 degree turns.

e. A break point at which the first 180 degree turn is started.

f. The direction of turns.

g. Altitude (at least 500 feet above the conventional pattern).

h. A "Roll-out" on final approach not less than 1/4 mile from the landing threshold and not less than 300 feet above the ground.
 
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Flyguy..

That pic u have kinda looks like
Sierra Academy ?

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That's exactly where it is. You've been there I take it?
 
I've had one close call. Approaching my airport when another aircraft came at same altitude, and about 250 feet away from us. (us as in my instructor and I). We didn't even see it coming. My instructor didn't say anything, and I was like: "ahh"..a delayed response from him: "that was close."
insane.gif
 
Yeah,

I use to live in Napa until last year.

I checked Sierra Acadmey out when I was
in High School.. many many years ago now.

Now I am in Spokane, WA. and training at
GEG.

I thought that building looked familiar
smile.gif
 
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Legal yes, but is it safe? There always is the matter of legal but unsafe and with most of the idiot GA pilots flying around out there I would say that in most cases if there is anyone else around it is anything but. Just my experience, though.

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Or, you can enter on the initial for an overhead maneuver.

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What's that mean?

Cheers


John Herreshoff

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Recently discussed in Aviation Safety. The procedure is also described in the AIM. Best not to perform the overhead unless you've had some training. You can freak yourself out, and scare the hell out of lots of people in the pattern if you do it when you would conflict with base/final traffic.

The overhead break is very efficient, though.

As always, know your airplane, and consult your IP or ex-mil CFI on this.
 
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