My first near death experience....

mastermags

mastermags

Well-Known Member *giggity*
Well, figured I should post this, as it was an eye-opener, and very aviation related.

So Im coming into CTJ from CSG, which is due south, and I am making a straight in final for RW 35. There is one airplane in the pattern, and he's departing to the north so Im alone. I make my call that Im on a 5 mile final... a few seconds later another plane calls that he is four miles east on a 45 for the downwind. The radio calls went something like this...

Plane XYZ: ... on a 45 for the downwind.

Me: Cessna 15Q is on a 5 mile final, we'll keep a lookout.

XYZ: XYZ, left downwind for 35.

Me: Cessna 15Q is on 3.5 mile final, full stop.

XYZ: Airplane on final, what's your position.

Me: 15Q, we're on a 3 mile final, I've got my light on. Do you need me to slow down.

XYZ: No, we're on downwind, we'll lookout for you.

Me: Roger, 15Q, 2.5 mile final.

XYZ: XYZ, turning left base for 35.

Me: XYZ, i dont see you, do you see me.

XYZ (4 seconds later): Ok, we're going to make a 360 and get out of your way.

It's at this point that I see the other guys in a diving left turn about 200 feet under my left wing. These guys were close. I made an uneventful landing... it didnt really sink in how close a call it was till i shut my engine off. It would have been even worse because my dad was watching me come in.

Im not sure how this could have been more avoided on my part other than coming in and flying a full pattern (which would have been unneccesary)... the guy had no business turning base when he knew an aircraft was on final and he could not see them.

Any comments and additions would be welcome from the peers or the masters on the forum.
 
Cruddy situation...glad it all came out okay. Was there any radio or on-the-ground interaction between you after the "incedent"?

I think that technically, since you were both "in the pattern", whoever was lower when the first contact was made had the right of way.

You did not clarify what your altitudes were, but I speculate that he was at pattern altitude before you since he was on the downwind and you were coming on a straight-in final. So, my supposition is that he had the right of way and you probably should have diverted for a 45 standard pattern entry.

This is one of those gray areas that can be debated until the cows come home, though. Like I said before...nobody got hurt!
laugh.gif
He could have easily extended his downwind, and that's what I would have offered to do if I were him. If I were you, I would have offered to make a standard pattern entry unless I had an ugent situation (emergency goes without saying).
Smilecrunch.gif
 
Well, correct me if Im wrong, but I think i would have had the right of way since I was more commited to land... im not sure who was higher at the time of the convergence, because he was in my blind spot, but since we were at the same location, and i was on final, not to mention he was diving out of the way, i would assume that i was lower or her was at the same altitude.... either way, it would not have made a difference if we were smoking holes.

No, there was no communication after we landed.... i wasnt sure what to say, or what i would end up saying, so i guess staying silent was the best option.
 
I had this happen once as a student pilot on my solo xc. I was on downwind calling for a left base and another pilot was on a straight in final (instrument approach) I believe. I could not see him and thought for a second I could turn base. After rethinking I extended my downwind leg until I saw him pass off oa my left wing. A few seconds after he passed I made my base turn and then final turn. It was uneventful and worked out. I may have burned a little more fuel but I was going to extend my downwind until I saw him or heard that he was on the ground.
 
Perhaps you had just switched over to the CTAF and didn't hear his initial call inbound for the 45 degree intercept.

It's always a good idea to say (if you don't hear anyone else in the frequency) something like 'any aircraft in the area please advise' on initial callup. Then you can adjust your plans accordingly if someone is in the area that you didn't know about. In this case, you might have decided to do a proper pattern entry, or adjust your path for spacing.

Either way, glad it turned out ok.
cool.gif
 
Since you were both VFR and at about the same time to landing (ie, same distance from end of runway) I would have to go with entering and upwind instead of continueing the straight in. However, because the air aircraft stated that you shouldn't do a 360 for spacing, it sort of became his responsibility to avoid you. Not that that would have helped you as far as FARs go if there had been a problem. I had a similar situation last week were I was on a downwind after a touch and go (so I was already in the pattern) when another aircarft called a 5 mile final. I just extended my downwind until I passed them going the other way and landed number 2. It's one of those fuzzy areas at uncontrolled fields. I'm glad it worked out in the end.

Ethan
 
No, I heard his call while he was still 4 miles from the airport... everything was gravy until he decided to turn base.
 
This is one of those age old FAR vs AIM tricks. The AIM says this the FARs say nothing...so what to do?

Well technically the altitude thing is correct, but an aircraft shall not intentionally descend to a lower altitude to take advantage of the right of way either. There was an article in Aviation Safety a few months back about non-towered operations in which the author spoke of an overhead break type maneuver where the aircraft would overfly the airport above TPA and break sharply to a downwind when traffic was in sight. The editorial review of the article was not exactly favorable.

Bottom line I think that situation is just one that's entirely too common these days. Most uncontrolled airports are the most friendly places to go to (with the exception of Cottonwood, AZ before 8am) but that kind of traffic conflict is almost unavoidable in situations like this. My advice to anyone and the same I give to my students is to enter on a 45 to the downwind either way...but then again I've seen my fair share of near hits from the 45 when people fail to extend upwind etc etc. So really I guess there is no good solution other than to be courteous and respectful on the CTAF. That and make sure you look out for the other guy, because I know none of us would intentionally run into another airplane...but there's always the other guy.
 
thread hijack:

rhs, nice avtar! that is Hana, Maui if I'm not mistaken. did you fly in there? very nice place.
spin2.gif


end hijack
 
Ah Cottonwood, the friendlist GA airport around...
argue.gif
I used to like flying there...
In that situation, prudence would state to me at least let the guy on final make his approach and landing, and turn base after he passes. The regs can state one thing, but that is just the most logical thing to me. Good to see you safe and sound, and a bit more aware for next time.
 
[ QUOTE ]
Well, figured I should post this, as it was an eye-opener, and very aviation related.

So Im coming into CTJ from CSG, which is due south, and I am making a straight in final for RW 35. There is one airplane in the pattern, and he's departing to the north so Im alone. I make my call that Im on a 5 mile final... a few seconds later another plane calls that he is four miles east on a 45 for the downwind. The radio calls went something like this...

Plane XYZ: ... on a 45 for the downwind.

Me: Cessna 15Q is on a 5 mile final, we'll keep a lookout.

XYZ: XYZ, left downwind for 35.

Me: Cessna 15Q is on 3.5 mile final, full stop.

XYZ: Airplane on final, what's your position.

Me: 15Q, we're on a 3 mile final, I've got my light on. Do you need me to slow down.

XYZ: No, we're on downwind, we'll lookout for you.

Me: Roger, 15Q, 2.5 mile final.

XYZ: XYZ, turning left base for 35.

Me: XYZ, i dont see you, do you see me.

XYZ (4 seconds later): Ok, we're going to make a 360 and get out of your way.

It's at this point that I see the other guys in a diving left turn about 200 feet under my left wing. These guys were close. I made an uneventful landing... it didnt really sink in how close a call it was till i shut my engine off. It would have been even worse because my dad was watching me come in.

Im not sure how this could have been more avoided on my part other than coming in and flying a full pattern (which would have been unneccesary)... the guy had no business turning base when he knew an aircraft was on final and he could not see them.

Any comments and additions would be welcome from the peers or the masters on the forum.

[/ QUOTE ]


You had the right of way! You made the first call and were already established on final even if it was a long final. Probably the best thing to do in that situation would have been to keep your speed up, but if you're in a Cessna how fast can the speed really be anyway! Why was he in your way if he was doing a 360 on the base though and you were on final? Did he make a call turning final? Sounds like he didn't know what was going on and then cut you off.
 
[ QUOTE ]
thread hijack:

rhs, nice avtar! that is Hana, Maui if I'm not mistaken. did you fly in there? very nice place.
spin2.gif


end hijack

[/ QUOTE ]

It is indeed. We flew out of OGG, out to Hana, back west to the Molokai cliffs, then back to OGG. Good catch!

Going to KOA Mem Day weekend and will fly over to ITO and down south past the volcano before heading back over to KOA. Should be fun! I think MEA over the middle of the island is 8000 MSL. I love island flying!
insane.gif
 
Here's the deal gentlemen. RIGHT when the first guy stated: "what's your position?" Immediately both aircraft should've stated position + altitude for positive deconfliction. In fact, altitude deconfliction is the most important of the two. How many times has your definition of "downwind abeam" differed from someone else's? How many times has your gauge of "4 mile final" differed from someone else's? The radio comm should've never proceeded as far as it did, with SA being there, but just two people simply not visual with each other. Positive deconfliction measures should've been taken by someone, immediately.

As a military pilot, we highly stress deconfliction, since by the nature of our ops, air-air or air-ground, midair potential is huge. If we're ever not visual with the other aircraft (when we're supposed to be), we give it maybe two potatoes of search time before immediately fessing up that we're blind with the other guy. At that time, all other things drop, and radio comm reverts to immediately initiating positive deconfliction via lateral, vertical, or sometimes both. It's no crime to lose sight of the other guy, it is a crime (so to speak) to not fess up, and not initiate separation. This concept carries over to the landing pattern too. Especially in a CTAF environment, it's paramount that someone do something positive with their aircraft either by 1. stating your position and altitude, hopefully to solicit the same from the other pilot. If you do that and he doesn't respond accordingly, query him for it. It will build your SA as well as his (pending he has any in the first place), and give a mental picture of where the other guy is if not visual, and where you can go to avoid. 2. State where you're moving your aircraft and do it, based either upon where he reported his position, or if that's not available, in a place so as to avoid any possible movement area he may enter in his pattern.

It sucks because these types of events are so avoidable, and should never progress to the "near miss" stage, especially when two aircraft are on the freq and talking to each other. Part of the problem is a lack of flight discipline among some civilian pilots....not discipline in the sense of a negative in their abilities, but discipline in the sense of (in my experience) almost a lax attitude with little sense of urgency to situations in the making, and little SA in the pattern...seemingly since the pattern is seen as the "easy" part of the flight, or the "flight's almost over", etc. Vigilence must be maintained at all times, as well as initiative exercised, in order to keep what should be a simple deconfliction issue from becoming a near miss....or worse.
 
[ QUOTE ]
... little SA in the pattern...seemingly since the pattern is seen as the "easy" part of the flight, or the "flight's almost over", etc.

[/ QUOTE ]

Any pilot that actually believes that the pattern is the "easy" part is a statistic waiting to happen. I can understand being tired and ready to get it over, but the pattern is where we need to be the MOST vigilent. I'm glad things are okay now, but it sounds like it was VERY scary for a minute there. Techincally speaking, whoever was at the lower alt had right of way. But as we all know from driving, just because you have right of way doesn't mean the other guy is NOT going to run the stop sign. Personal opinion, if I'm on downwind and I KNOW there's a guy on final, I don't turn base until I lay eyes on him or hear him call on the ground. This stems from my paranoia of trusting no one in the air or on the road.
 
MikeD, thanks for the response. You are correct in that it should not have come as close as it did, especially since we were in radio contact with each other. If we had stated our altitudes, it probably would have made the other guy look a bit harder before turning his base leg. It is obvious our perceptions of "two mile final" differed... perhaps if I would have requested he extend his downwind he would have complied, but I thought that was what he was going to do anyway. I guess if ive taken away anything from this, its to be sure that other pilots in your area are on the same page as you. As Rod Machado always says, predictability is the key to safety in the traffic pattern.
 
I have had that same scenario happen to me before. Except I was the downwind guy. My situation seemed like a no brainer though. I just called that I was extending the downwind and would turn base behind the final traffic. When I was abeam the final traffic I turned base.
 
[ QUOTE ]
MikeD, thanks for the response. You are correct in that it should not have come as close as it did, especially since we were in radio contact with each other. If we had stated our altitudes, it probably would have made the other guy look a bit harder before turning his base leg. It is obvious our perceptions of "two mile final" differed... perhaps if I would have requested he extend his downwind he would have complied, but I thought that was what he was going to do anyway. I guess if ive taken away anything from this, its to be sure that other pilots in your area are on the same page as you. As Rod Machado always says, predictability is the key to safety in the traffic pattern.

[/ QUOTE ]

We all live and learn, partner. I've had the same situation in my training days, as well as my "veteran" days now. And I've handled them two completely different ways. Luckily, all the times have been non-incidents, but I like the way I handle them now. I just learned through experience and time, like many have before me, and many will after me.

It reminds me of the two Riddle 172s we had midair with other at PRC in 92. Got pics of both of them, since I was on scene pretty quickly (had been off-roading on the final approach to 21). One 172 with a solo stud was on right DW, second dual aircraft on left DW. Tower calls traffic to the dual who calls "traffic in sight" and is told to follow (the solo stud). All the planes being the same color, the dual crew had seen another 172 that was on final and began their base as the solo stud was on base. Planes collided on their respective base to final turns. Dual plane crash landed short of 21, solo plane landed on the runway. IMO, dual crew only looked for the traffic they were to follow and that's it. Failed to take in the "whole pattern picture" mentally of who was where and doing what, based on the radio comm.

Kellwolf, you mention turning base with other traffic on straight-in final. In our USAF regs, pattern priorities are stated flat-out. Apart from emergency aircraft, helos, etc, straight-in's (for us) have priority over aircraft on closed downwind as well as aircraft rollling out on downwind from the overhead break. 2 reasons: straight-ins are lower and established on final. Downwind aircraft are required to make their call and include whether or not they have the straight-in in sight; and it's a standard call, spelled out in the regs "Hog 11 base, gear, full stop,straight-in traffic in sight." If the straight-in is not in sight by the time the DW traffic desires to turn base, there's two options: 1. Call "breaking out of the pattern", clean up the aircraft, climb to pattern alt + 500' (2000 AGL) and proceed to the VFR entry point to enter via outside DW (or via tower instructions), or 2. Clean up the aircraft, make the base turn at pattern altitude and fly the base to final ground track, maintaining pattern alt (1500 AGL) and call "Hog 11 base, short initial, straight through", and fly upwind to the departure end of the runway, reentering initial via outside downwind pattern (or as instructed by tower). We normally don't extend the pattern, just because it turns the pattern into a loose B-52 pattern, versus maintaining the tight pattern that expedites traffic flow; but in civilian case that is a viable option.

Differing regs from civilian, I know, but I use it to illustrate differing methods to safely "escape" a potential conflict, prior to (or even at) the point the hairs on the back of your neck begin to stand up.
 
Well, you did nothing wrong. The other guy was insane for turning base without having visual contact. He should have extended his downwind until he could tell for sure if he could land before you got there.
 
You must log in or register to reply here.
Back
Top