Multi Commercial Add-On

Ian_J

Hubschrauber Flieger
Staff member
Passed the checkride today, and here's a brief run down:

First of all, it all started horribly. As I left the house (over an hour from the airport), I had the feeling I was forgetting something. Couldn't figure it out, double checked everything, and off I went. Once at the airport I discovered I was right. I left my kneeboard at home, which had all my certificates and my medical.

D'Oh!

I was freaked out and feeling like an idiot. My instructor called the examiner who was already enroute to the airport in his personal Cessna 206. He said don't worrry about it. We had copies of all of it at my flight school, and he could also look me up online.

I preflighted, and jammed out a W&B and performance data that was also left on my kneeboard at home and waited for him to arrive.

The DE's name is Ken, and he's a great guy. First off, he was the first DE I ever had who wasn't over 60 years old. He is an ex Eagle Captain, and is probably the best DE I've ever flown with.

Some weather was forcasted later in the afternoon and he didn't want to get stuck or postpone the ride, so we headed out with him saying the oral would be done in the plane. And that he did - he randomly fired off systems and aerodynamics questions throughout the flight, yet did it in a practical application sort of way.

Took off, did steep turns, slow flight, and stalls. Some interesting things I didn't know:

Steep turns: At the commercial level you are supposed to transition from one direction to the other without a pause, but at the private level you can pause between directions.

Stalls: At the private level you are supposed to take it to the full stall, but at the commercial level you are only supposed to take it to the first signs of the stall.

Then we did a VMC demo. It was here I learned my instructor taught me incorrectly. My instructor had me simulate zero thrust for the demo, but it turns out you aren't supposed to bring the prop back. And it makes sense too; for VMC certification, the prop is windmilling. Duh. Anyway, he understood my explanation and let me do it again and no problems.

Then he told me my left engine was rapidly losing oil pressure with a corresponding increase in temp, so I basically had to give myself the engine failure. Went through the steps, no problems, and he had me restart. Then he simulated the same failure with zero thrust and we did a SE GPS approach.

Once at the MDA and on short final I did my final before landing check, and discovered I didn't have three greens. I had dropped the gear at the FAF and didn't notice the lack of three greens because I was distracted with something else. Thankfully, I do MULTIPLE before landing checks on every approach and caught it.

Then did a short field and was done!

Have the MEI next Tuesday!
 
Congrats!

Steep turns: At the commercial level you are supposed to transition from one direction to the other without a pause, but at the private level you can pause between directions.

The private also does not require turns in both direction. The examiner has the option to request both.

Stalls: At the private level you are supposed to take it to the full stall, but at the commercial level you are only supposed to take it to the first signs of the stall.

That is the examiner's opinion, but it isn't supported by any FAA publication that I've seen. The commercial PTS says:
Recognizes and recovers promptly as the stall occurs by simultaneously reducing the angle of attack, increasing power to maximum allowable, and leveling the wings to return to a straightand-level flight attitude with a minimum loss of altitude appropriate for the airplane.
The ATP PTS, however, has a maneuver called "Approaches to Stalls" and it says
Announces the first indication of an impending stall (such as buffeting, stick shaker, decay of control effectiveness, and any other cues related to the specific airplane design characteristics) and initiates recovery or as directed by the examiner (using maximum power or as directed by the examiner).
Looks like a clear difference in intent to me.

Also, the Flight Instructor Multi-Engine PTS has a common error for stalls:
f. failure to achieve a stall.​
The Examiner's opinion appears to differ from the FAA's opinion.

Once at the MDA and on short final I did my final before landing check, and discovered I didn't have three greens. I had dropped the gear at the FAF and didn't notice the lack of three greens because I was distracted with something else.

You might consider whether it's prudent to drop the gear when you will need to have a segment of level flight, particularly at low altitude. Some light twins will not be able to do it. On a NPA, I asked students to only drop the gear when the field is made.
 
That is the examiner's opinion, but it isn't supported by any FAA publication that I've seen.

I had a feeling, but hadn't looked it up yet.



tgrayson said:
You might consider whether it's prudent to drop the gear when you will need to have a segment of level flight, particularly at low altitude. Some light twins will not be able to do it. On a NPA, I asked students to only drop the gear when the field is made.

Couldn't agree more. This is pure instructor/DE technique. The DE likes to to see the gear dropped in the same spot every time, no matter what, as to form a positive habit making it harder to forget the gear. In a traffic pattern they want it abeam the numbers, and on an approach they want it at the FAF.

In various texts I've seen the suggestion you made and it makes sense. Also, the POH and various texts suggest not extending flaps while SE until the field is made (especially full flaps), but the instructor/DE want the flaps to go on schedule the same as if you had both engines. The duchess can do it at SL and 3600 lbs. Probably not higher and heavier.

In short, I follow their technique for the ride, but take advice from books and guys like you to refine my personal technique.
 
but the instructor/DE want the flaps to go on schedule the same as if you had both engines.

Surprised at that. The PTS calls for the "recommended" configuration.

The examiner is stepping outside of his proper role to prescribe technique, particularly when it's contrary to the POH and PTS. If this were an examiner I were going to use on a regular basis, I'd be sure to discuss it with him.

BTW, did you use a yaw string during your ME training?
 
Surprised at that. The PTS calls for the "recommended" configuration.

The examiner is stepping outside of his proper role to prescribe technique, particularly when it's contrary to the POH and PTS. If this were an examiner I were going to use on a regular basis, I'd be sure to discuss it with him.

BTW, did you use a yaw string during your ME training?
Don't get me wrong though. He was a good DE. And now re-reading my post and your responses I realized something -

It was my instructor who SAID the DE wanted the gear and the flaps done like that. The only thing the DE actually said about those two things was simply the gear should be dropped at the same point each time in the pattern. He didn't mention SE situations or inst approaches.

Then again, When I DID drop my gear and 10 degrees of flaps at the FAF while SE, the DE didn't mention anything about it.

And nope, no yaw string. I read all about them but I never got around to asking about them. How would you go about attaching one and where would you attach it to?
 
It was my instructor who SAID the DE wanted the gear and the flaps done like that. The only thing the DE actually said about those two things was simply the gear should be dropped at the same point each time in the pattern. He didn't mention SE situations or inst approaches.

That was kind of my suspicion. It seems quite often that an instructor says or thinks a DE wants "X", but either the instructor himself has been misinformed, or misunderstood something the examiner has said. That's why I think it's a good idea to challenge the examiner a bit, in a friendly way, when you disagree with something. Often you find out that he's far more flexible and reasonable than it appeared.

And nope, no yaw string. I read all about them but I never got around to asking about them. How would you go about attaching one and where would you attach it to?


I believe these are extremely valuable training tools. I make it about 3 ft long and tape it to the nose of the cowling, so that the end of it is just short of the windscreen. Some people attach it to the windscreen, but often the problem with that is that the windscreen is curved, so it's difficult for the yaw string to lie straight.

What it allows you to do *see* is when you've truly achieved zero sideslip, rather than relying on memorized indications, such as "half a ball." It takes far less bank than you think, less than the proverbial 5 degrees.

You can also diagnose problems with the proper amount of bank and rudder. I remember during my initial ME training, I was having to put in rudder opposite the direction of bank, and my instructor, a low time ME pilot, didn't seem concerned about it or have any thoughts. Putting a yaw string on showed that I had too much bank and was having to use the wrong rudder to keep from turning. Ugly.
 
I believe these are extremely valuable training tools. I make it about 3 ft long and tape it to the nose of the cowling, so that the end of it is just short of the windscreen. Some people attach it to the windscreen, but often the problem with that is that the windscreen is curved, so it's difficult for the yaw string to lie straight.

What it allows you to do *see* is when you've truly achieved zero sideslip, rather than relying on memorized indications, such as "half a ball." It takes far less bank than you think, less than the proverbial 5 degrees.

Yup, read all about that stuff and how light twins typically only need 1.5-3 degrees of bank. I was only wondering if tape actually holds the string in place! We talking duct tape or what?
 
Yup, read all about that stuff and how light twins typically only need 1.5-3 degrees of bank. I was only wondering if tape actually holds the string in place! We talking duct tape or what?

Doesn't take that extreme. Very wide masking tape will work, I've also used metallic tape. If you leave it on too long, as in weeks, the glue is hard to get off. Just make sure the edges are smooth, otherwise the wind may peel it off.
 
Doesn't take that extreme. Very wide masking tape will work, I've also used metallic tape. If you leave it on too long, as in weeks, the glue is hard to get off. Just make sure the edges are smooth, otherwise the wind may peel it off.
Cool! I'll try it this weekend.
 
Congrats on passing the checkride! That's my next goal is to get my multi. My DE also stumped me on the stall question, private vs commercial. I looked it up in the PTS and the only word that is different is the private says recovery "after" the stall occurs, where for commercial it's "as" it occurs. Learned something new there. Anyway, congratulations and keep it up.
 
I have found that there are three ways to do a manuever:

The right way
Your instructor's way
The DPE's way

On every checkride I have had, my DPE's have always said "that was fine, but I like to do it like this."
 
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