Mountain flying, single engine piston

[JordanD]

I've been doing a lot of studying and hypothetical flight planning to get a better grasp on mountain flying, and this stuff is confusing and sometimes a little frightening to think about. I've mainly been looking at flights out of the Denver area and trying to plan routes out of there, but it seems almost impossible in something like a 172. Most if not all the MEAs are either higher than the service ceiling of a 172, or would require supplemental oxygen. Not to mention the service ceiling is best case scenario, forget about it in the summer. Realistically how safe is MEA even in some of these areas, factoring in mountain weather and such? The only routes I could come up with generally tacked on at least a hundred miles, even then it seems pretty tight if the airplane isn't quite performing ask the book says.

What's the general practice in areas like this?

 

[Tommay85]

Assuming this is for the AA interview/job

-Follow roads ONLY
-No IMC
-No night
-Cross ridges at a 45 degree angle
-20 knot surface winds are safe, 30 can be a little hairy, especially on takeoff, forget about it at 40 knots
-pay attention to cloud formation as the day progresses
-hug the windward side of the valley if you're travelling up one(gives you the most room if you need to make a 180 and the least amount of turbulence)
-If you're flying along the ridges, fly just barely on the windward side. ZERO turbulence there. HELL ON EARTH on either side of the smooth part.
-AA will pay for oxygen if you need it. An M model(50988 at least) can ride waves up to 17,600, so it can get there if you need it
-Pictometry likes to draw lines RIGHT to a peak where you'll have maybe 150-200 feet of clearance. Not a big deal in winds up to about 20 knots, but there isn't a lot of weather reporting out in the sticks. At any rate, have an escape plan as you approach the peak if things go south. Be ready to man handle that bish into the valley like a maniac.
-2500 to 3000 foot runways may scare you, but the AFM is right on the numbers, it'll fly if you keep what I mentioned about winds in mind.
-Oh, and windsocks are fully extended at 15 knots or higher

Disclaimer: I'm a bit of a Sally

Jfk-Pilot and z987k can give some of their experiences with picto mountain flying. AngelFuree should share his takeoff story

 

[tlewis95]

^Great stuff there.

IFR in the average normally aspirated single engine through the Rockies is either impossible or not practical at all so VFR is certainly the way to go and much much safer because you can follow roads instead of airways.

If the company wants you to be IFR on XCs you could maybe get away with a VFR on-top clearance to keep the safety and flexibility of VFR flying with you.

If you haven't taken it already the ASF course on mountain flying is pretty informative as well.

 

[Tommay85]

Air America is very much against IMC and night in the mountains. Thankfully.

You'll be out on your own with absolutely no oversight though OP. It's easy to get sucked into doing dumb things. Especially when you don't have any experience to back up your conservativeness against the more experienced(and sometimes reckless) guys. AA hasn't had a crash, but there are many many many close call stories.

Edited original post to void any confusion. IFR(regarding your flight plan/ATC interaction) is perfectly fine, IMC is not.

 

[JordanD]

Air America is very much against IFR and night in the mountains. Thankfully.

You'll be out on your own with absolutely no oversight though OP.

Yeah, actually IFR and night was never a consideration, just considering if you were filing to do a repo or something.

Do you run into situations where the density altitude prevents you from getting much done? Seems like it could be a problem in the summer, especially during the "window".

 

[Tommay85]

I did Spokane and Boise in the Summertime. I also did the restricted area North-Northwest of El Paso. Those plans were at 13,500 with surface temps of 105-107. Took awhile, but it got up there. Spokane had plans that went up to 11,500. Wasn't an issue. Getting gas at some of the more remote places got close though, performance numbers wise, a couple times. I personally never had any "OH #@%^" moments in the mountains, but I also followed my rules I listed above. Only a gas situation scared the crap out of me one time.

Basically, the ONLY thing that limited me during the year I was there was clouds and ATC. Relocation flights, it was thunderstorms/winter storms.

 

[Tommay85]

I'll give you a hint for that flight they'll have you plan for your interview. Go up to Cheyenne and then follow I-80 to Burbank. Assuming they're still doing that scenario of course.

 

[bike21]

Take a proper mountain flying checkout. It's worth it's weight in gold and then some. UAL hit a lot of good points, but until you go see how ridge lift works, performance really sucks, etc it's all just theory.

I used to do checkouts in the 182/206 (power is your friend) then finally got comfy enough to use a 172 if need be. Some old timers would take way under powered machines and work the lift but I liked a little extra power.

One day we found some wave action that had the VSI in the turbo 206 pegged a 2,000fpm in a downward fashion despite bring at full power and Vx. Needless to say we did a 180 and got the heck out of dodge.

 

[MidlifeFlyer]

Yeah, actually IFR and night was never a consideration, just considering if you were filing to do a repo or something.

Do you run into situations where the density altitude prevents you from getting much done? Seems like it could be a problem in the summer, especially during the "window".

Absolutely. Obviously, it depends on the airplane and its power and service ceiling. One of the flight schools in the Denver area used to have a policy (might still have it) that the planes were not dispatched after a certain temperature was reached. And most of us piston pushers would not fli in the mountains after noon or 1 pm in the summer due to the turbulence created by heat-induced instability and the building of cumulus.

I like UAL's punch list even if this is not for a job interview. The one I would add to or modify is

-20 knot surface winds are safe, 30 can be a little hairy, especially on takeoff, forget about it at 40 knots

is
-20 knot winds aloft at ridge crossing altitudes are safe, 30 can be a little hairy, especially on takeoff, forget about it at 40 knots.


I recently did a seminar for my new flying club in NC. It was specifically intended to bring these concepts home to the lower eastern mountains but yo might find a few helpful tidbits here and there: http://www.slideshare.net/mjkolber/mountain-flying-a-primer-2013

 

[JordanD]

I'll give you a hint for that flight they'll have you plan for your interview. Go up to Cheyenne and then follow I-80 to Burbank. Assuming they're still doing that scenario of course.

Holy hell, talk about taking the long way.

 

[Tommay85]

Holy hell, talk about taking the long way.

Flight time. The winter is what sucks. Stuck using the Southern pass on transcon reposition flights.

 

[rframe]

Best book on mountain flying I've read. http://www.mountainflying.com/products/mfbr_info.html

 

[Stomp16]

We can only go 2 ways thru the Rockies. Either thru the southern part of Wyoming to Salt Lake, to Reno and on or from ABQ on V12 all the way to Cali. No night or IMC. We did take a mountain flying course in CO and all it taught me is that I really don't want to mess around in CO if I don't have too.

 

[z987k]

One day we found some wave action that had the VSI in the turbo 206 pegged a 2,000fpm in a downward fashion despite bring at full power and Vx. Needless to say we did a 180 and got the heck out of dodge.

You did it wrong. You're never going to win against a downdraft in a little single. Vy in the updrafts, push it over and build airspeed to get through the downdrafts. Take every foot that the updraft will give you. If that means going to 17k, that's fine. The only thing that matters about your altitude is that it's above the ground. Let it go all over the place. Most people try to hold their altitude in the updraft. That is beyond stupid. If the downdraft is going to be too much, then start bringing the airspeed back to arrest some of the descent while turning around back into the updraft. Always know where the updraft is. If you have to, circle in it like a glider.

If a glider can make it with monstrous wave action going there's no reason you can't. At those density altitudes you can just consider yourself a self launching glider. I've crossed CO quite a few times APA direct PUC in a 172M at 12-17k. I'd not hesitate to try it in a 65hp cub though. The wx would have to stay severe clear, but the airplane is capable.

There were quite a few times flying picto that a flight plan would be up at 12+k and there'd be a downdraft through the line. You'd miss those pictures the first time around, and when you came back, you'd find some lift, come in high and time it so the downdraft was pushing you through your target altitude at the pictures you missed. I don't think I ever once was not able to climb to a target altitude in a 150hp 172 that was usually near gross at takeoff. I think my highest plans were like 13 something though.

 

[jmreii]

I've been doing a lot of studying and hypothetical flight planning to get a better grasp on mountain flying, and this stuff is confusing and sometimes a little frightening to think about. I've mainly been looking at flights out of the Denver area and trying to plan routes out of there, but it seems almost impossible in something like a 172. Most if not all the MEAs are either higher than the service ceiling of a 172, or would require supplemental oxygen. Not to mention the service ceiling is best case scenario, forget about it in the summer. Realistically how safe is MEA even in some of these areas, factoring in mountain weather and such? The only routes I could come up with generally tacked on at least a hundred miles, even then it seems pretty tight if the airplane isn't quite performing ask the book says.

What's the general practice in areas like this?

You need to grab a very good flight instructor from that region of the country with some bush experience flying in and out of the rockies with piston single engine aircraft. You need some hands on experience before scaring or killing yourself!

 

[Hefner]

Oregon to Kentucky in a 150 last year I flew threw the Togwotee Pass, right on the edge of max gross coming out of Jackson Hole took a bit of thermal action to get enough altitude to make it through, here's a shot at 12.5

High DA flying is definitely something that needs to be handled with care, especially in an underpowered single.

 

[MidlifeFlyer]

You need to grab a very good flight instructor from that region of the country with some bush experience flying in and out of the rockies with piston single engine aircraft. You need some hands on experience before scaring or killing yourself!

Agree, except for the "bush experience." Colorado mountain flying is not "bush flying" and there are excellent mountain pilots and instructors in the Rockies who have never been to a "bush" airstrip.

 

[Zondaracer]

Best book on mountain flying I've read. http://www.mountainflying.com/products/mfbr_info.html

Sadly, Sparky passed away in a crash in 2009. It just goes to show, that all the knowledge and experience in the world sometimes is not enough to get yourself out of a bind.

Several schools in the Denver area offer mountain checkouts. We have guys flying out to Eagle-Vail, Leadville, Steamboat Springs, Glenwood Springs, Buena Vista, Durango, Aspen, and more. Density Altitude can be crazy high out here. Just yesterday, I saw a DA of 8100ft out of APA, and the temperature was only 17C.

 

[z987k]

Agree, except for the "bush experience." Colorado mountain flying is not "bush flying" and there are excellent mountain pilots and instructors in the Rockies who have never been to a "bush" airstrip.

There's plenty of dirt strips in CO and UT. The difference between the UT bush flying and say, AK - in AK the DA doesn't get to 12k in the afternoon.