More on Icing

Even though whether or not icing had anything to do in the cause of the crash is uncertain, further discussions into the issue like this one just may save a life or two down the road. Nice post.
 
In my time so far at the airlines, I've noticed a LOT of gaps in training. Nice read on the tail icing, and it may save someone's life someday. I don't have the link handy now (PCL_128 might have it), but after the 3701 accident at PCL, it came to light that people didn't know that stall recovery at high altitude is not the same as at 10,000 in a jet. I know I didn't. Company trains you to recover from a stall at 10,000 ft. If you try that at 41,000, well, you get exactly what they got. At 10,000 you have the excess thrust to power out of a stall. At 41,000, you simply don't.
 
kellwolf said:
In my time so far at the airlines, I've noticed a LOT of gaps in training. Nice read on the tail icing, and it may save someone's life someday. I don't have the link handy now (PCL_128 might have it), but after the 3701 accident at PCL, it came to light that people didn't know that stall recovery at high altitude is not the same as at 10,000 in a jet. I know I didn't. Company trains you to recover from a stall at 10,000 ft. If you try that at 41,000, well, you get exactly what they got. At 10,000 you have the excess thrust to power out of a stall. At 41,000, you simply don't.
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It is a problem for the regionals for sure. Majors have the benefit of a large military population that has had training and experience in operating jets, so that stuff becomes part of the manuals, etc. Regionals have been populated by a lot of people that never flew jets before, and came out of props. It's not unlike the early jet age, where we had a rash of high altitude upsets until people figured it out, as all those people transitioned from Connie's, etc. to jets.

As for ice, I just hope we don't get yet more needless requirements put on large transport jets due to issues that really only affect straight wing airplanes without leading edge devices. There has never been an accident involving a large, swept wing, transport, with leading edge devices, due to ice, whether inflight or not getting deiced prior to takeoff.

We spend millions of dollars doing things to protect against a problem that has never existed, which diverts money from things that might actually prevent REAL accidents. There is a real risk that FAA will, again, use the shotgun approach, that if it is bad for a (relatively) small straight wing turboprop, or jet w/o LEDs, that is must be bad for ALL transports. They are different animals, and should be treated as such.
 
I'm still very bothered (and even more so now with CJC3407), that I've flown with CAs who basically presume that we're fine just because we have anti-ice systems.
 
I wish we could just wait for awhile to talk about the technical aspects of the accident...I am so disgusted by flightinfo.com that I don't think I will ever participate there again. One of the pilots killed on CJC was a good friend of mine, and I was supposed to see him Monday.
 
BE19Pilot said:
I wish we could just wait for awhile to talk about the technical aspects of the accident...I am so disgusted by flightinfo.com that I don't think I will ever participate there again. One of the pilots killed on CJC was a good friend of mine, and I was supposed to see him Monday.
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I didn't think this thread was talking about any particular accident, just the issue of icing and training in general.
 
cencal83406 said:
I'm still very bothered (and even more so now with CJC3407), that I've flown with CAs who basically presume that we're fine just because we have anti-ice systems.
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Man, I'm scared of that stuff....even in the CRJ. We get into icing, I start checking the wipers. Most of the time, it's okay. If it starts building up to the point I'm not comfortable, we're changing altitudes. I'd rather AVOID severe icing than have to get out of it. I remember doing the post flight after landing in DTW one day. Plane looked like it had been rolled like a snow cone. That scared me more than anything else I've see so far.

seagull said:
It is a problem for the regionals for sure. Majors have the benefit of a large military population that has had training and experience in operating jets, so that stuff becomes part of the manuals, etc. Regionals have been populated by a lot of people that never flew jets before, and came out of props. It's not unlike the early jet age, where we had a rash of high altitude upsets until people figured it out, as all those people transitioned from Connie's, etc. to jets.
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Agreed. The holes in my training at Pinnacle scare me. I'm glad I had this place and the experienced guys here to learn from as well as some of the more experienced CAs at Pinnacle before I made it into the left seat. The whole "you'll learn it on the line" mentality I witnessed in initial was downright frustrating.

I didn't think this thread was talking about any particular accident, just the issue of icing and training in general.
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:yeahthat:
 
seagull said:
Majors have the benefit of a large military population that has had training and experience in operating jets, so that stuff becomes part of the manuals, etc.
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seagull,

I wouldn't depend on my employer to provide ALL the training I'd ever need in any area of the operation. I don't care who that employer is or where its pilots came from.

Forums like this are a place to kick around issues and perhaps make you aware of things you need to know...so you'll go learn them. The internet is your friend.

I worked for three airlines, trained with four legacy airlines, a rating mill, and an aircraft manufacturer and every one of them left something to be desired but the ultimate responsibility was not theirs.

Ya'll be careful out there. :D
 
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