Met AA Captain, #47 on Seniority List

[NYCDooDahMan]

Last night I'm walking down East 87th Street in New York City, heading home, and a silver haired pilot appeared walking my way. After stopping him and asking him if he'd mind if I asked him a bunch of quesitons, I began my barrage of inquiries.

Turns out he flys the JFK - Tokoyo Route for American. 58 years old, one year away from retirement, 47th out of 10,000 on the seniority list. I begin to ask him what he thinks of me - a young person who just acquired his PPL - and my goal of one day becoming like him.

He rolled his eyes and started saying that he's taken 33% in pay cuts already, that the glorious pay that most widely believe pilots get is a thing of the past, and that salaries have not caught up with the economy and the value of today's dollar. With an airforce background, he said if he could do it all again he wouldn't. He claimed that the toiling a young pilot needs to make from the begining, to the regionals, too possibly being furloughed does not get out weighed when one finally gets a steady consistent post. When we parted ways, he shook my hand and insisted that I go into somoething in investments and brokerage, much like an airplane that goes up and down and the pilot controlls it, the market goes up and down and the broker can be in control and be successful regardless of the conditions.
I was a little disappointed at his constant insistance not to keep on considering the career and that it is a trully difficult one. He kept on rattling off how bad the furlough situation is, so jc'ers I run to you for some motivation.
If one of the most seniormost pilots at American is disillusioned by his career, what hope do I and we have?

 

[tonyw]

In any profession, you're going to meet people who love their jobs, people who hate their jobs, and people who are in between.

You ran into someone who hates his.

 

[ready2fly]

Chin up, bro.

Good thing you did stop the gentleman and good thing he was honest with you. What it comes down to is that you listened to what he said and prepare for what could happen (furloughs, pay cuts, etc.).

Believe me - not so long ago (read: mere months) I would get hacked if those who have "made it" would say something I did not want to hear.

But, take a step back and realize that he, in all his grumpy-jaded-assed wisdom, was trying to help you.

He was pointing out that the grass is NOT as green as you might think and that there are other choices out there. That being "an airline pilot" is not the be-all, end-all that some think.

I think Doug sums up what this gentleman was trying to say when Doug says "do you want to be an airline pilot, or do you want to become an airline pilot?..." (or something to that effect).

There are many who want to be.... but not many who want to become...

You have just been armed with some fantastic knowledge from someone who is most definitely "in the know."

What you do with it is up to you. If you let it get you down, then you probably want to be a pilot.

If it strengthened your resolve to keep pursuing aviation as a career (as this kind of info does me), then you want to become a pilot.

NEVER be afraid to ask for advice - and ALWAYS be prepared to hear some things you may not want to hear. Especially in aviation.

Best of luck!
R2F

 

[DE727UPS]

"That being "an airline pilot" is not the be-all, end-all that some think."

Actually....it has been for me.

 

[ready2fly]

Cool. Should have said "MAY not be the be-all, end-all...."

But, you get my point.

 

[pilot602]

Let's not discount this guy's advice so quickly. If he hated his job so much I think at some point over the previous 30 years (not counting his military service) he would have walked.

You asked for the advice and he gave you his opinion. Now it's up to you to listen or ignore him. If you want to fly aircraft, do it and stop asking people's "advice" or for "approval." Just do it. Nothing in life is guaranteed and while I think a lot of long-time pilots think a desk job is more stable, these days it's just not. However, that "impression" is just a form of the "grass is greener."

If you like to fly just buckle down and dig in.

That being said, airlines aren't the only way to make a living (maybe not "$300k/yr", but a living nonetheless) flying airplanes. There's flight instruction (hard but not impossible), charter, government work, corporate etc. So, yeah, maybe the airlines aren't thatgreat anymore but that doesn't mean you can't make a living another way or in a different facet of aviation.

This isn't meant to slam you ... just that not all the advice or opinions you get are going to be what you want to hear so you need to make a decision as to whether or not your going to give any weight to the stuff you don't like.

If you like to fly, fly. If you're not sure fly part time and keep your options open. If you're going to listen to a complete stranger (how do you know this guy really is an American captain or that he flys the tokyo route) you randomly met on a street corner at night then maybe I can sell you some beach front property in New Mexico.

 

[derg]

It's really like any other job, it has it's ups and downs. Some days are great, others suck monkey butt. Industry up-swings, industry down-swings.

If I won the lottery tomorrow, I'd probably say hausta la vista -- but not for any other reason other than I wouldn't have to spend half of the month on the road and don't have to deal with being an employee.

The actual performance of your job is fantastic, but everything else surrounding it usually bites.

 

[chrisesp]

I bet you have a bigger for passion for flying than he does, so generally you would probably be willing to put up with all of the garbage to get to his position.

Plus when you've been doing the same thing for 30+ years day in and day out, it will get annoying, even if you sit on the beach everyday drinking pina coladas for the next 30 years that would get annoying!

 

[tonyw]

[ QUOTE ]
Plus when you've been doing the same thing for 30+ years day in and day out, it will get annoying, even if you sit on the beach everyday drinking pina coladas for the next 30 years that would get annoying!

[/ QUOTE ]

I dunna, man. I think I could live the Garth Brooks song "Two Pina Coladas" and be happy for quite a while!

Of course, I'd have to work out like a madman in order to make sure I didn't balloon up to selt belt extender size! So I guess it wouldn't be all fun and games.

 

[derg]

[ QUOTE ]
even if you sit on the beach everyday drinking pina coladas for the next 30 years that would get annoying!

[/ QUOTE ]

Hahahah!

pshaw'right!

I don't know bro, but I can sit al fresco at a Parisian cafe with a cup of cafe au lait and a croissant for the next 15 years and not bat an eye!

Add alcohol? I could probably make 45.

 

[Cachon]

Something to remember is that there are a lot careers path that a pilot can take, and althought working for a major airline is an execelent goal. there are other choices that are equally if not more rewarding.

I just came back from a visit to the dominican republic and I was fortunate enough to meet a Captain with over 10k hours. for most of his careers he was a corporate pilot and after an incident about 2 years ago where he had to dish he plane on the caribean ocean and his long time friend that was with him at the time lost his life, he decided that he needed a break from aviation.

while he was recovering from his injuries, he realize that he had not fulfill his longtime dream of being a helicopter pilot.
after being home idle for a while he started training to become a helicopter pilot.

recently he spent a month working in Haiti helping a bunch of people that were affected by a massive flood, were thousands of people lost their life. his job was to transport food and medicine to the area and to transport sick children to hospitals around the country.

My final point, I'm going to say someting that he told me and I will never forget. "if you really want to become a pilot, there are many many sacrifices, but the rewards outweight all of them.

Good luck

 

[A300Capt]

[ QUOTE ]
Last night I'm walking down East 87th Street in New York City, heading home, and a silver haired pilot appeared walking my way.

[/ QUOTE ]

As I tell my wife, "It's not "silver", they're platinum highlights!"

I'm sure he's become somewhat jaded by his career and his airline's ups and downs. If you're in this business long enough, you too will experience them and it does cloud your enthusiasm for the profession.

Currently, he's probably watching his once primer airline, along with other legacy carriers, struggling just to survive on a daily basis. He's probably thinking about maintaining or losing his pension, health benefits and his family's overall security after retirement. These things tend to take precedence as you get older. The "coolness" factor of just flying the airplane has long since passed and has been replaced with the everyday problems we all struggle with out on the line.

The airline Captain of today and his/her crew have been given more responsibility and accountability as we've watched slowly watched our authority erode. Over the years, airline crews have been asked to do more for less or to be more "productive" to management and the bottom line. The.."We're one big happy family"..here at airline "XYZ" has been replaced by a more antagonistic relationship between worker bee and management. Nobody likes working in that environment.

Everyday stressors such as being away from home for long periods of time and missing a lot of family functions, commuting, checkrides, linechecks, medical exams, FAA, TSA and long flights crossing multiple time zones (NYC-NRT) and hoping the terrorists don't strike again. These are just a few of the things that weigh on a person over the span of a career.

And, at the end, you wonder if your company will remain solvent enough for you to enjoy the fruits of all your labor. You wonder if you've exposed yourself to enough radiation and eating enough crappy airline food while flying over the poles on your "exotic" and "glamorous" NYC-NRT trips to jeopardize your health. At least you have health benefits, ah,..right?

People just starting out in aviation and young folks haven't been exposed to a lot of the stressors and baggage associated with flying. They see things in black and white. They don't see all the gray areas involved. Don't condemn someone like this AA Capt if you haven't walked in is footsteps and seen or done what he has. It's not all bad but it's certainly not all a bed of roses either.

There are times I go to work and think I have the greatest job in the world. There are also times I wish I just owned a small coffee shop close to my home and had never been in an airplane. Ask me again when I turn 60!

Take it for what it's worth....

 

[derg]

[ QUOTE ]
There are times I go to work and think I have the greatest job in the world. There are also times I wish I just owned a small coffee shop close to my home and had never been in an airplane. Ask me again when I turn 60!

[/ QUOTE ]

Ditto.

I like to travel, but suprisingly, so little of my job at this point really involves the elements that I enjoy about travel.

I was down at the grocery yesterday and one of the checkout ladies who knows that I traveled for a living asked me a question:

"Where'd ya go this trip?"

"Oh, laid over in Syracuse and Miami"

"Wow, how was it?"

"Well, the Crown Plaza in Syracuse was alright, had to take a hotel shuttle 20 minutes to find some food and we were in the other city long enough for me to set three alarm clocks, and we weren't in Miami very long. Good thing because when we were on the shuttle to the airport, I discovered that the hotel lies behind massive security gates".

I think my perfect job would be writing travel journals with Kristie. More or less like a "Rick Steves" but a husband and wife duo. Travel to Paris, spend a few weeks exploring the 'backroads' and writing about it. Sampling restaraunts, parks, museums, etc.

 

[mastermags]

How come all the pro pilots I meet tell me to stick with it and that it is an awesome career, and all the pilots ya'll meet tell you to get the hell out of aviation? /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/confused.gif /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif

 

[CK]

Any one ever hear a corporate pilot say not to pursure a career in aviation? I've had plenty of fractional guys (never met a captain that hated their company more then this one captain) and airline guys tell me to "get out while you can", but never any corporate guys.

 

[aloft]

I would'nt be so quick to discount his advice. Most serious investment bankers do well enough to retire by age 30-35, and it'd be much easier to start the airline career then when you've got a few million in the bank. (I'm totally serious about that figure.)

 

[Ecl!pse]

Yes Alex, I've had the same experiences. I know a corporate pilot (he showed me around the company's 900 Falcon!!!), and he says to stick with it and enjoy myself. Honestly, I hope to fly corporate someday, for a company that I personally know the CEO--to be in a month or 2 here..I guess its just which side of the pilot fence your on, and how the last day has been. If you catch a pilot who has taken some crap in the last few days, sure hes gonna say things you dont wanna hear and often times he doesnt truly mean. Like Doug and everyone else says, its all about the ups and downs of the industry and personal lives.

 

[ILSstud]

Interestingly enough, I had a very similar situation happen to me 2x. In short the first time I was waiting at an airport and a pilot saw me reading my instrument oral exam guide or some book like that, and he told me that general aviation is a wonderful pastime, "...but son, the airline's just ain't what they used to be. Go become a doctor or a a banker as you seem like a smart 'lad.' " Ironically, the second time I had just finished this course called ATOP in Houston where for 2 days you take a small "intro-course" on the 737 at Continental's pilot training facility (at the end you get to fly the sim for about 2 hrs). Needless to say I was rather "high on flying" driving back to the airport in Houston. Anyway, I started talking to this USAirways pilot, and he really got cynical saying things like flying for the airlines is like a rootcanal and other comments about how about the industry was etc.

Flashforward to me sitting in 23A on my home to Palm Beach, and I was just looking out the window and I saw THE most beautiful sunset over the Gulf. It crossed my mind that this is the view from the office for the pilots of that flight. I think it could have been the 2nd best moment of my trip (first being landing a 737 sim on my first ILS approach /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif ) Importantly, though, rather than be all bitter and angry towards this "mean old pilot who just put down my dreams," I realized that he was telling me like it is. The Glory Days of aviation have long since past. No one says it's an easy industry to get into and it certainly isn't a cheap way to getting a job (i.e. paying for ratings, and all the studying and hours of patience involved), but when you have the bug to fly an airplane you have it for life. I suggest you check out a column written by Sky Masterson in the latest edition of Airways magazine. He addresses this very issue.

Well the point to all of my babbling is that you have to accept the good with the bad. When and if you take up flying for a career it won't always have the feeling of say when you got your PPL. Every job has pros and cons and you just have to weigh them together. Being an investment banker is a wonderful thing, but would you be happy? Sure you'd have tons of money- millions maybe, but is it what you want to do. If you have the true desire to BECOME a pilot for a career then you can make it happen. Just don't expect it to be a turkey shoot. It's one of the most volatile industries to go into and that AA captain (and my USAirways pilot) did us and all the JCers and aspiring pilots a service. They gave us a view of how it really is from their own perspective. We can all write about what it is like to sit in a captain's chair and look at what he sees physically in front of him. Anyone with a damn picture of a cockpit can do that. However, I sure as hell won't be able to tell you anything further from that (minus a few vague details about the industry as a whole) unless I actually become a pilot and see what it is like firsthand. So take what that AA pilot had to say to heart because he has probably seen a lot of great friends furloughed, lost a lot of money, and has to put up with a lot of sh**. Just don't drop your goals because it's going to be a hard road to achieve them.

That's my 2 cents..or 3.

 

[Guest]

The first pilot I flew with at FXE told me that I would be better off as an ATC controller. I listened but didn't take the advice. There are many ways of doing aviation. I don't have to be flying for "X Airlines" to be happy and getting paid as a pro pilot.

 

[kellwolf]

[ QUOTE ]
Travel to Paris, spend a few weeks exploring the 'backroads' and writing about it. Sampling restaraunts, parks, museums, etc.

[/ QUOTE ]

If you need help doing the research, don't hesitate to call me. /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/smile.gif