MEL and STC's

Apples and oranges. What are you trying to do? Modify an airplane by adding or taking something away, or operating with something broke? Or something else?
 
Actually just trying to understand something that my commercial student got asked on a stage check :confused:

I believe the question was do we need an STC if we have an MEL? And is an MEL considered an STC? I am pretty sure that an MEL is considered an STC, but I am not sure why. I believe it's in the preamble or the LOA somewhere. Just confused.
 
Two completely different animals here. Seems like an unusual question to ask on a stage check or check ride for that matter. So I would have to say no.
 
azaviator08 said:
Actually just trying to understand something that my commercial student got asked on a stage check :confused:

I believe the question was do we need an STC if we have an MEL? And is an MEL considered an STC? I am pretty sure that an MEL is considered an STC, but I am not sure why. I believe it's in the preamble or the LOA somewhere. Just confused.
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STC is a supplemental type certificate, and allows modifications to the original aircraft. MEL allows an aircraft with an approved MEL to dispatch with inoperative equipment.

Different animals as said before.
 
Learning something new today...

http://www.amtonline.com/publication/article.jsp?pubId=1&id=1754


edit to add:
"...M.E.L. stands for Minimum Equipment List, and many super smart aviation folks are surprised to find that an M.E.L. is, in maintenance terms, a Supplemental Type Certificate (STC).

An M.E.L. is an STC because it modifies the original aircraft's type certificate to allow operators to legally operate their Part 91 aircraft with inoperative, non-essential instruments and equipment on board...."

I certainly had not heard it put that way before.
 
SteveC said:
Learning something new today...

http://www.amtonline.com/publication/article.jsp?pubId=1&id=1754


edit to add:
"...M.E.L. stands for Minimum Equipment List, and many super smart aviation folks are surprised to find that an M.E.L. is, in maintenance terms, a Supplemental Type Certificate (STC).

An M.E.L. is an STC because it modifies the original aircraft's type certificate to allow operators to legally operate their Part 91 aircraft with inoperative, non-essential instruments and equipment on board...."

I certainly had not heard it put that way before.
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Interesting
 
That's a favorite stage check question here...at some point orals need to become PRACTICAL tests again instead of trivia contests. Just IMHO.
 
SteveC said:
Learning something new today...
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Very interesting indeed.
IMHO though, any check instructor *seriously* asking that on a stage check should get whapped up side the head with a stapler. Passing it on as a factoid is cool though and would help make the check more than just review.
 
pwttogfk said:
That's a favorite stage check question here...at some point orals need to become PRACTICAL tests again instead of trivia contests. Just IMHO.
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This.

There are some things that you need to know, and other things that are nice to know. This qualifies as the latter.
 
Sort of like "Do we require a 100 hour to do this checkride today?" - DPE ego question, that's all. I figure there are enough life and death questions to fill a 2 hour block.
 
USMCmech said:
No, but it does make sense when you think about it.

I think I've got another stumper commercial pilot oral question for mock checkrides.
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Why would you try to stump a student? Isn't the purpose of a mock checkride to explore their weak areas instead of finding a question you know they will not have an answer for? Isn't that addressed in the FOI as one of the naughty things?
 
moxiepilot said:
Why would you try to stump a student? Isn't the purpose of a mock checkride to explore their weak areas instead of finding a question you know they will not have an answer for? Isn't that addressed in the FOI as one of the naughty things?
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If a student is doing well on a mock checkride, I like to push the envelope a bit to challenge them. Every checkride should be a learning experiance.

If a student is struggling then I would stick the basics they need to know.

I would NEVER fail a student because he didn't know the answer to a question like that, it's more a chance to teach them something new. I would imeadiatly let them off the hook, "I really didn't expect you to know about that".
 
USMCmech said:
If a student is doing well on a mock checkride, I like to push the envelope a bit to challenge them. Every checkride should be a learning experiance.

If a student is struggling then I would stick the basics they need to know.

I would NEVER fail a student because he didn't know the answer to a question like that, it's more a chance to teach them something new. I would imeadiatly let them off the hook, "I really didn't expect you to know about that".
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If the student is doing good, Ill throw out questions that Ill preface as being "extra credit" questions. Some nice-to-know stuff, if the stud is doing good on the need-to-know stuff.
 
I had no idea that a MEL was technically a STC.

However, I'd imagine except for the individual asking the question, none of us would know the answer. Maybe 1% if you asked the average pilot. Of course, this DE's student's have the gouge, so anyone that doesn't know looks like a dolt.

I agree with the other guys in regards to evaluations. Once proficiency is established, you move on to mastery and if time is left, tournament level. If you get busted for not knowing tournament level knowledge, that's cheap, IMO.
 
Yes, as the others have said a MEL is an STC, by virtue of the fact that it lets you operate the aircraft in a condition contrary to the original type certificate. For an airplane to be airworthy every single piece of equipment and furnishing must be working or in the condition specified by the manufacturer at the time the type certificate was issued. For example, if the coffee maker on a 777 is broken we all know the the airplane will not be able to take off...most likely because the captain is to tired to push back. :D

So rather than have to look at the type certificate for the 777 and to find out if the coffee pot is a required part of the aircraft...we get ourselves a MEL which modifies the type certificate (hence being a supplemental type certificate) and allows us to operate that aircraft subject to the restrictions in the MEL. Obviously a 777 comes with a MEL from the start (over 12,500lbs and/or a turbojet) and a coffee maker isn't the best example, but that is beside the point.

And I hate stage check pilots who do this crap! I had a private pilot student fail (yes fail) because he couldn't remember how to go about getting an MEL for aircraft. He could use one, knew the required parts, but when asked how to get one his answer was, "call the FSDO," instead of being able to list the 20 somethings steps listed in the Advisory Circular.
 
denver said:
Sort of like "Do we require a 100 hour to do this checkride today?" - DPE ego question, that's all. I figure there are enough life and death questions to fill a 2 hour block.
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I thinks that's a completely valid question that can clearly expose the level of understanding an applicant (or their instructor) has about airworthiness. There are so many levels to this and a good DPE will know how far to take it.
 
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