ME Stalls POH vs PTS

desertdog71

desertdog71

Girthy Member
PTS for Commercial says:

Recognizes and recovers promptly as stall occurs for Power On and Power off stalls in the ME Comm PTS.

The POH for my aircraft says:

Stall recovery in the Twin Comanche should be initiated at the first indication of a pre stall buffet, warning light or horn. The aircraft should not be permitted to develop into a full stall.

The POH is the governing text at this point, so would I be correct in assuming that on my checkride I will only need to take it to the first sign of imminant stall?
 
When I did my mulit in the duchess, we only brought it to the buffet before recovery during training, and the same on the test...no problems.
I vote yes
 
desertdog71 said:
PTS for Commercial says:

Recognizes and recovers promptly as stall occurs for Power On and Power off stalls in the ME Comm PTS.

The POH for my aircraft says:

Stall recovery in the Twin Comanche should be initiated at the first indication of a pre stall buffet, warning light or horn. The aircraft should not be permitted to develop into a full stall.

The POH is the governing text at this point, so would I be correct in assuming that on my checkride I will only need to take it to the first sign of imminant stall?
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D Dog, you need to take it to the first aerodynamic indication. The commercial PTS, which is your =flying standard= for your CFI ride "recovers as the stall occurs". On my MEI-initial ride I took it to the break as per the inspector. Ask them what they want you to do. They may say first indication (stall, buffet, or stall warning horn) or first aerodynamic indication (stall or buffet).
 
Van_Hoolio said:
Only if you were getting your multi private would it be an issue. Full breaks for private standards.
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Are you sure about that? The commercial PTS clearly says "as the stall occurs". Does it say "full break" in the private PTS?
 
meritflyer said:
D Dog, you need to take it to the first aerodynamic indication. The commercial PTS, which is your =flying standard= for your CFI ride "recovers as the stall occurs". On my MEI-initial ride I took it to the break as per the inspector. Ask them what they want you to do. They may say first indication (stall, buffet, or stall warning horn) or first aerodynamic indication (stall or buffet).
Click to expand...

Given what my POH says, I am going to tell him to get bent if he wants it to break.

That was what I was saying I guess. The POH says not to stall the plane. The PTS says "as stall occurs"

I don't think that the examiner can "require" you to violate what the POH says.
 
You're correct. For example, the MEI/commercial PTS say a simulated engine failure should not occur below 200' AGL. But the Seminole POH says intentional engine cuts should not occur below 4000' AGL - so thats where you do them. Remember, its illegal per FAR 91.9 to operate an aircraft outside it's limitations set forth by the flight manual, markings, or placards.

So, show them that reg if they throw a hissy fit. I think you take it to the first aerodynamic indication, recover, and you call it good.
 
Well, here is the deal. In clean configuration the plane buffets at 83, Horn and light at 80, and breaks soon after. The buffet is subtle and may not be picked up on, so just to the horn and I should be good I guess.
 
Yeah, like I said just bring it up to them on the ground so you're not up in the air debating it. They usually are pretty cool about stuff like that.
 
meritflyer said:
Are you sure about that? The commercial PTS clearly says "as the stall occurs". Does it say "full break" in the private PTS?
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I'm pretty sure the private PTS says "after the stall occurs" versus the commercial PTS which says "as the stall occurs" versus the ATP PTS which says "at the first indication of an impending stall" or something like that.


Mike
 
desertdog71 said:
That was what I was saying I guess. The POH says not to stall the plane. The PTS says "as stall occurs"

I don't think that the examiner can "require" you to violate what the POH says.
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The instructions and limitations set in the POH, Maint manual, ect from the aircraft manufacturer, ALWAYS superseed the FAA limitations.

The DE could make you find an aircraft that can do all the procedures set forth in the PTS, but he can't force you to try something that your airplane isn't aproved for.
 
desertdog71 said:
PTS for Commercial says:

Recognizes and recovers promptly as stall occurs for Power On and Power off stalls in the ME Comm PTS.

The POH for my aircraft says:

Stall recovery in the Twin Comanche should be initiated at the first indication of a pre stall buffet, warning light or horn. The aircraft should not be permitted to develop into a full stall.

The POH is the governing text at this point, so would I be correct in assuming that on my checkride I will only need to take it to the first sign of imminant stall?
Click to expand...

Recovering at the buffet should satisfy commercial PTS.

Mike
 
USMCmech said:
The DE could make you find an aircraft that can do all the procedures set forth in the PTS,
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What the hell???

So he can tell me to go get a different M/M aircraft???

I have my doubts about that one.
 
Van_Hoolio said:
Don't get too excited. The buffet = as the stall occurs. You're good.

Mike
Click to expand...

I just like debating these matters. I am not getting excited.

The POH says no stalls, its pretty clear to me, I will take it to that point and thats it. If the DE wants more than that, tough crap, I am the PIC for the flight and he can deal with that however he wants once we are on the ground.
 
Private PTS
6. Recognizes and recovers promptly after a stall occurs by
simultaneously reducing the angle of attack, increasing power to
maximum allowable, and leveling the wings to return to a straightand-
level flight attitude with a minimum loss of altitude appropriate
for the airplane.
Click to expand...
Commercial PTS
6. Recognizes and recovers promptly as the stall occurs by
simultaneously reducing the angle of attack, increasing power to
maximum allowable, and leveling the wings to return to a straightand-
level flight attitude with a minimum loss of altitude
appropriate for the airplane.
Click to expand...
ATP PTS
5. Announces the first indication of an impending stall (such as
buffeting, stick shaker, decay of control effectiveness, and
any other cues related to the specific airplane design
characteristics) and initiates recovery (using maximum power
or as directed by the examiner).
Click to expand...
Hey, I was right after all.
 
desertdog71 said:
If the DE wants more than that, tough crap, I am the PIC for the flight and he can deal with that however he wants once we are on the ground.
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That might be true, but handling it like you do on here (all "macho") won't get you very far. I'd talk about it on the ground prior to the flight.
 
wheelsup said:
That might be true, but handling it like you do on here (all "macho") won't get you very far. I'd talk about it on the ground prior to the flight.
Click to expand...

You need to learn my sense of humor is all. You don't really think I am gonna say tough crap do you? These matters will all be discussed on the ground prior to the flight.
 
DDog, (heh... we could start a whole zoo with ducks and dogs and stuff... anyhow...) it sounds like you had one of those "interesting" experiences with a twin stalling and starting to hardover. It's all kinds of fun and what not, and it is all very good and well that you don't have to do it for your ride. However, seeing as you are going through the pipeline on the way to getting your CFI and instructing, make sure you are actually comfortable with a twin going into a full stall. I know it is beaten into every multi students head that a twin that gets into a spin won't come out, and the way to spin is stall uncoordinated or maybe loose an engine while practicing stalls. However, full break stalls can be done safely in a twin. I know the POH says don't, and hence you shouldn't be doing them. As I said though, at some point before you get the ink on your MEI make sure you are ok with them because you can bet sooner then later a student will put it in a stall. That or just wait for a student to freeze up while doing a VMC demo and pull back and add power when they get the horn instead of cutting power and dropping the nose. Ah yeah, the good old days.

(not preaching at you.... just bringing up a point from personal experience)
 
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