Maximum number of failures for a student?

Hooha

Hooha

Well-Known Member
When I did my CFI I remember someone telling me that if a CFI signs off a student for a checkride and the student has already failed that check ride twice then the CFI can be asked by the FAA to possibly perform a checkride of their choosing if the student fails for a third time.

Has anyone else heard this? I looked in the FAR and didn't see anything about it. I even remember watching a student argue with a his CFI because the CFI wouldn't sign him off for his third attempt at his PPL practical.

Even of you are not the CFI who endorsed the first two checkrides you are still bound by this rule. Or so I remember.

Thanks,

mtu
 
I don't know about this. But, I do know that some instructors have had there ticket on the line because of there percentage of check-ride passes. If it gets below a certain percentage you could be getting a call from the FAA. I think this depends on FSDO's. But, our FSDO is known for being particularly tough and they have come to my school and watch a ground or road along for a flight with fellow CFI's that have not so great pass rates. Makes being a CFI that much more stressful...
 
I don't think there is any hard and fast rule, but I do know a guy the FSDO came and had a sit down with due to his pass rate being low.
 
Different FSDO's have different policies, but they are charged with monitoring the instructors within their jurisdiction. Our FSDO has a policy of checkriding an instructor on a third consecutive bust.
 
I was talking to a FSDO check airman the other day and he mentioned something about crappy pass rates and a "703" ride( I am pretty sure that is the number, but not 100% 7-0- something). This isn't the first time I've heard of this, but I've known some instructors with some pretty crappy pass rates that didn't hear anything from the FSDO, although thier number of students and job interviews dwindled. I think it can be done anytime the FSDO has reason to believe that the instructor shouldn't be flying an airplane. (ie. Drastic errors consistent with students, relly low pass rate, etc...) He did mention something about being below 60% pass rate that you will be watched. He could have been talking trash though. I didn't get too in depth. Hopefully someone could clarify.
 
nosehair said:
Different FSDO's have different policies, but they are charged with monitoring the instructors within their jurisdiction. Our FSDO has a policy of checkriding an instructor on a third consecutive bust.
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29.92inHg said:
I was talking to a FSDO check airman the other day and he mentioned something about crappy pass rates and a "703" ride( I am pretty sure that is the number, but not 100% 7-0- something). This isn't the first time I've heard of this, but I've known some instructors with some pretty crappy pass rates that didn't hear anything from the FSDO, although thier number of students and job interviews dwindled. I think it can be done anytime the FSDO has reason to believe that the instructor shouldn't be flying an airplane. (ie. Drastic errors consistent with students, relly low pass rate, etc...) He did mention something about being below 60% pass rate that you will be watched. He could have been talking trash though. I didn't get too in depth. Hopefully someone could clarify.
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I had no clue the FSDO's had enough time to watch instructor/student pass rates so carefully. Very interesting, good to know.

Oh, it's a 709 ride btw.
 
I know I didn't have the FSDO call after I had three in a row fail; but then again I had had the previous 17 in a row pass.

I think the FSDO understands that passing and failing, while heavily affected by the instructor, has a whole lot more to do with the applicant; and some arbitrary number of failures is not a guarantee of a visit.
 
bdhill1979 said:
I know I didn't have the FSDO call after I had three in a row fail; but then again I had had the previous 17 in a row pass.

I think the FSDO understands that passing and failing, while heavily affected by the instructor, has a whole lot more to do with the applicant; and some arbitrary number of failures is not a guarantee of a visit.
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That is correct. It can be a judgment call on the instructor, but it can also be affected by the reputation of the particular school, and the actual resources available at that FSDO. ...aaand I have never seen it to be a "witchhunt". The CFI does a little sit-down and a short flight and if he knows what he is doing, really, he/she has a pleasant day.
 
I have heard this same rumor before. As I recall, this came up when we had a student fail his CMEL ride twice due to steep turns. The Chief wanted the student's instructor to get someone else to fly with said student (good idea anyway) and sign him off, because the 3rd fail on the same student, same ride could trigger a 709 ride. I never axed any of the FSDO guys if it was true, though.
 
nosehair said:
By the way, when I say "3 consecutive", I mean the same applicant failing the same ride 3 in a row. That's what we are talking about.
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now that is a different story altogether

If they don't pass on the second try (never had one not), they weren't getting a third signoff without a lot of work.
 
AviatorGator said:
I had no clue the FSDO's had enough time to watch instructor/student pass rates so carefully. Very interesting, good to know.
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Most don't. It comes from a database and it is relatively easy to search, but doing something with the information afterwards is very time consuming.
AviatorGator said:
Oh, it's a 709 ride btw.
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It used to be a 609, and you will still occasionally hear someone call it a 609, but you are correct. It comes from 49 U.S.C. 44709, abbreviated as 709.
 
Thanks for the info guys. The reason this came up was because I was talking to another cfi and he was talking about how many students he's had recently that came from somewhere else and already had flight time with other instructors. I just mentioned to him about being careful and looking at their endorsements to see if they have failed a checkride that he was training them for.

The way I understood it, even if you didn't sign off the student any of the first two tries and then they failed with your endorsement the third time, then you are probably going to sit down with the FAA sometime if they look into it.

Thanks again.

mtu
 
nosehair said:
Different FSDO's have different policies, but they are charged with monitoring the instructors within their jurisdiction. Our FSDO has a policy of checkriding an instructor on a third consecutive bust.
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What FSDO are you under? I'm under the DFW FSDO.

mtu
 
I had a student fail private 3 times, twice in the oral once in the flight. The student was chinese and his english was terrible and the examiner was a total jerk to him.
My pass rate along with many others I work with aren't the most impressive, due to the fact we teach special "chinese" students.
 
37° 22′ 50″ n, 120° 34′ 5″ w ~ The Bermuda triangle of student pass rates. I'm pretty sure the POI/FSDO takes into account that you're making the impossible possible everyday.
 
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