Max VFR-On-Top Altitude?

Mikerohren

Mikerohren

Well-Known Member
I was just curious how you guys would interpret this section of the AIM 4-4-8 a. Now of course I would assume that the maximum VFR altitude is 17,500' but in the writing of the above section it says, "This permits a pilot to select and altitude OR FLIGHT LEVEL of their choice." The flight level thing is what has got me thrown off... haha... I understand that this is still an IFR clearance, but it also states later in the section that a pilot must "fly at the appropriate VFR altitude as prescribed in 91.155"...
 
There are places outside of the 48 that have the transition altitude/ level at something other than 18,000 (usually less). You could be VFR at flight level in that airspace.


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mshunter said:
17.5 or 16.5. you can't be VFR in IFR only airspace.
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It can be done. A recent inverted spin record was accomplished by starting in the twenties, with a day VFR only Pitts.

More of an exception to the rule than the norm


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CFI A&P said:
It can be done. A recent inverted spin record was accomplished by starting in the twenties, with a day VFR only Pitts.

More of an exception to the rule than the norm


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I'd be willing to bet they had to get some kind of LOA. Glider altitude records are in the upper 30k ft range if memory serves. Pretty sure there isn't a GIFR rating, and it's hard to search that from a phone.
 
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VFR on top essentially allows for 500ft separation between aircraft on IFR flight plans. Aircraft are still provided positive separation from all other aircraft by controllers. Visual separation cannot be used above FL180, so no VFR on top above FL180. In fact, there is not much advantage at all to a VFR on top because controllers hands are still tied (ie don't expect direct destination as soon as you get on top). If you are trying to get above a layer and go direct the best way to do that would be to cancel IFR on top and then pick up another IFR clearance closer to your destination if necessary to get back down.
 
CFI A&P said:
There are places outside of the 48 that have the transition altitude/ level at something other than 18,000 (usually less). You could be VFR at flight level in that airspace.


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That. Argentina (South America) seems to be around 4,500 feet, or FL4.5. The guy I fly with just couldn't wrap his head around that for a while. It's still weird for me too. I'm pretty sure the EU is similar.
 
greg1016 said:
VFR on top essentially allows for 500ft separation between aircraft on IFR flight plans. Aircraft are still provided positive separation from all other aircraft by controllers. Visual separation cannot be used above FL180, so no VFR on top above FL180. In fact, there is not much advantage at all to a VFR on top because controllers hands are still tied (ie don't expect direct destination as soon as you get on top). If you are trying to get above a layer and go direct the best way to do that would be to cancel IFR on top and then pick up another IFR clearance closer to your destination if necessary to get back down.
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Actually according to the AIM, VFR on top relieves ATC of IFR separation requirements unless the plane is operating in Class B or TRSA airspace, which would require normal separation mins. ATC however will still issue traffic advisories of pertinent VFR or IFR aircraft to aircraft operating VFR on top outside of B/TRSA airspace just as they would any VFR aircraft receiving flight following.

As for direct destination on a VFR on top flight, I would agree with you in regards to the east coast. But after working out in WA/OR for the last month and a half, I have realized it is a whole other world out here. I have heard a lot of clearances given to Empire Airlines for their caravan flights along the lines of Cleared direct to XXX airport maintain VFR on Top.



While not technically VFR ON TOP, you could essentially operate VFR ON TOP in Class A airspace if you request and receive a Block Altitude assignment.

Because of the hoop jumping and hassle of flying survey within DC's Freeze area, we sometimes fly above it. I had to do this back in the winter/spring. Because survey altitudes are based off of GPS altitude and not Baro, it could get tricky as some times they are not able to use FL180, so I would request and receive FL 185 Block FL 200 and most of the time I was at some oddball altitude like FL192 or something like that.

What was really fun was the Prohibited areas over the WH and Capital that go up to 18,000ft but in reality extend into the FL's if the baro pressure is right. Found that out AFTER I had already overflown them and was working my way away from them when the controllers started telling me I couldn't go any lower than FL182 due to them extending up that high...
 
PositionAndHold said:
That. Argentina (South America) seems to be around 4,500 feet, or FL4.5. The guy I fly with just couldn't wrap his head around that for a while. It's still weird for me too. I'm pretty sure the EU is similar.
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Almost every country is different, but luckily it's on the jepp plate. Some change depending on the baro that day.
Coming from the US it's also wise to look at both the transition level and altitude. They are also sometimes different.
 
Tyler Pinkerton said:
Actually according to the AIM, VFR on top relieves ATC of IFR separation requirements unless the plane is operating in Class B or TRSA airspace, which would require normal separation mins. ATC however will still issue traffic advisories of pertinent VFR or IFR aircraft to aircraft operating VFR on top outside of B/TRSA airspace just as they would any VFR aircraft receiving flight following.
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Well, as you know, the AIM is not regulatory. The 7110.65 is. True, VFR on top does relieve the controller of standard IFR separation, but it does not relieve the controller of responsibility. VFR on top is a clearance and pilots must comply. Essentially it allows the pilot to change altitude without a specific assignment (in the computer assigned altitude is OTP). Bottom line is it is still an IFR clearance and cleared routes still apply. Visual separation cannot be applied to aircraft operating in the flight levels.

http://webapp1.dlib.indiana.edu/vir...x.cgi/4300833/FID2415/ATPUBS/atc/p0703001.htm
 
NovemberEcho said:
If you're in an ICAO governed area
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ICAO doesn't "govern" anybody. They're an international organization affiliated with the UN. Their "rulings" are suggestions to be adopted by its members.

The transition altitude is set by the aviation regulatory authority of a country, their counterpart of the FAA. In the USA we have the most robust general aviation in the world, and a lot of people fly VFR so it makes sense to have such a high transition altitude of 18k. In a lot of other countries, it's actually illegal to fly and not be under an IFR flight plan, so there isn't really a need for a high transition altitude. I've seen as low as FL040. Maybe there are even lower ones?
 
Wouldn't the transition altitude be based on topography more than anything?
fiveninerzero said:
In the USA we have the most robust general aviation in the world, and a lot of people fly VFR so it makes sense to have such a high transition altitude of 18k. In a lot of other countries, it's actually illegal to fly and not be under an IFR flight plan, so there isn't really a need for a high transition altitude. I've seen as low as FL040. Maybe there are even lower ones?
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FM_Weasel said:
Wouldn't the transition altitude be based on topography more than anything?
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Yes as well as radar services available and bordering airspace (adjacent countries and sectors).


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fiveninerzero said:
ICAO doesn't "govern" anybody. They're an international organization affiliated with the UN. Their "rulings" are suggestions to be adopted by its members.

The transition altitude is set by the aviation regulatory authority of a country, their counterpart of the FAA. In the USA we have the most robust general aviation in the world, and a lot of people fly VFR so it makes sense to have such a high transition altitude of 18k. In a lot of other countries, it's actually illegal to fly and not be under an IFR flight plan, so there isn't really a need for a high transition altitude. I've seen as low as FL040. Maybe there are even lower ones?
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All I know is all my controller friends stationed in Europe or the ME just always refer to it as ICAO rules
 
In my center puke days I'd get guys filed at FL600, remarks would say.. *VFR above FL600. Doesn't really pertain to this but it is cool none the less.
 
Don't forget international ops have transition levels which can differ whether you're climbing or descending.
 
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