Low Timers are Finally Getting Mainstream Press

B767Driver

New Member
Somebody Gets it. Excellent article.



Airlines: Lowering the Standard Is Never the Best Choice
posted on: December 20, 2007 | about stocks: AMR / LCC / UAUA Print Email
Airlines are making a move to fill pilot ranks that to be honest, really do not make me want to run out and jump into a plane. As a matter of fact, they make me want to avoid them.

Faced with competition for pilots from overseas carriers and private companies, airlines including American Airlines (AMR), United (UAUA) and US Airways (LCC) have announced several measures to address the shortage.

They are lowering the flight hour requirements for pilots from 1500 to 500, with only 50 of those hours in multi-engine planes.
Raising the mandatory retirement age for pilots from 60 to 65.
Partnering with flight schools to offer “accelerated” educational programs.

Now, correct me if I am wrong, but aren’t the most likely people to get into an accident in an automobile the young & inexperienced and the elderly? Is it really the best move to place those very demographics behind the wheel of a DC-10? Perhaps a better move to become more competitive when hiring would be to raise the starting salary from the $24,000 a year it sits at now? Essentially there is not really a shortage of pilots, just pilots that will work for that money when better money is available elsewhere.

When CVS (CVS) needed additional pharmacists in order to accomplish its expansion plan, they began a program that paid for schooling for applicants in return for a 5 year commitment after graduation. Is there anything stopping airlines from enacting a similar program?
Would you feel safe if CVS lowered the standards for those dispensing your medicine?

Admittedly the younger hires will be co-pilots, not pilots out of the gate but as the airlines continue to lower the experience requirement, these folks will eventually find themselves behind the controls with potentially thousands of hours less flying time than their predecessors had.

If we had a shortage of heart surgeons, would any of us be rushing to get in line for an operation from a doctor who was allowed to graduate with a GPA below 2.0 or only required to have 1 year rather than 3 of residency? Me neither.

The move to raise the retirement age alone is estimated to net 1,500 additional pilots in the first year alone. That means 1500 people who last year and this year were considered to have a skill set that the unstoppable aging process would have deteriorated to the point that it was no longer safe to have them pilot airlines.

Now, because we need more folks, we can just move the needle? I am sure the vast majority of these pilots, and let’s not forget, these folks will be pilots, not co-pilots, who will be just fine flying. But, if say 15 of them aren’t, isn’t that a huge problem? Lowering the standard to accomplish a goal is never the best choice, more often than not the results can be tragic…
 
From what I've read on this board and heard from family flying for SWA, the age 65 rule is going to put the brakes on hiring and movement for the next few years - which should result in hiring minimums going up.
 
500 hours wont' get you on at UAL, AA, or USair. That article never mentioned the actual name of the companies that employ 500 hour guys or described how those airlines partner with their majors. Poor research by the author.
 
Doesn't the prefix "co" mean...two or dual?

Captain and First Officer seems to sound better to me.

Very realistic article, nonetheless.
 
It would be more realistic if he stated that these "co-pilots" actually ARE behind the controls of these aircraft.
 
This is an opinion piece that states some "facts" that are not in evidence. Such as: Essentially there is not really a shortage of pilots, just pilots that will work for that money when better money is available elsewhere.

I know a number of pilots recently hired at legacies who didn't give starting pay a second thought and took big paycuts to make the move.

Particularly if you look at the word-wide pilot supply there is a critical shortage that will require some new solutions.
 
Do American, United, and US Airway's even fly DC10's? lol

Good article, if only the writer got his facts straight.
 
Good to know that as an FO I am not actually a pilot.. :)

We did a circle to runway 29 in Newark the other night with some pretty nasty winds (45+ knot gusts, 15 knot gain on final, etc. etc.) and the poor folks in the back must have thought we were going to die (it looked kinda bad up front, and must have looked horrible in the back). When we got off the plane somebody asked something to me and the captain and when I replied to them some guy was like, "YOU landed the plane!?!?!?!"

That's right folks, I might look like I'm 15 but I fly the plane too!
 
This whole debate is presently being fueled by the uniformed public AND bitter old snobulated senior pilots who are pissed off about 50,000 some odd things with the industry. And are mad at low-time new hires because we got in without having to slave away in the right seat of a Skyhawk cockpit on 5 million degree summer days or get our butts shot at in military flying for five or so years before going 121.

Right now there is not enough evidence to make any argument either way on whether or not this wave of low time pilots such as myself will have any effect on airline safety...We'll know for sure in a few years who was right and who was full of their own egos and that can go in either direction.

There are a lot of factors to take into consideration with this debate that don't get mentioned very often. One being that regional aircraft from CRJ's to Q400's are much safer and far more automated then aircraft many of the snobulators started their careers out on. That makes them easier to fly safer with less experience. Systems are more reliable, there is more nav and real-time weather data available now and the new generation of younger people are coming out of school with more sophisticated skill sets then they did 20 years ago. Kids are just plain smarter these days guys...Let's give them a chance before we write them off as too young, too inexperienced and too "unworthy" of sitting in that right seat next to you.

If in a few years accident rates skyrocket or even noticeably go up then even though I got in with 600 hours..I'll join the bandwagon to keep low timer's out of 121 cockpits. But until we have empirical data to take a valid position...You bitter old high time guys should think about anger management classes.
 
We did a circle to runway 29 in Newark the other night with some pretty nasty winds (45+ knot gusts, 15 knot gain on final, etc. etc.) and the poor folks in the back must have thought we were going to die (it looked kinda bad up front, and must have looked horrible in the back). When we got off the plane somebody asked something to me and the captain and when I replied to them some guy was like, "YOU landed the plane!?!?!?!"

That's right folks, I might look like I'm 15 but I fly the plane too!


same weather we had in NJ the other night as well. We had reported 40kt gusts, had the Windshear Caution on our first approach and luckily were able to make it in later that night after holding a bit. We were getting shaken around in the -10 pretty bad, so I can imagine how bad it felt in the ERJ!
 
This whole debate is presently being fueled by the uniformed public AND bitter old snobulated senior pilots who are pissed off about 50,000 some odd things with the industry. And are mad at low-time new hires because we got in without having to slave away in the right seat of a Skyhawk cockpit on 5 million degree summer days or get our butts shot at in military flying for five or so years before going 121.

I've flown with guys at my company that are pretty senior, and should be pissed they're still at a regional. This attitude you keep bringing up does not exist at my company, so I don't see what you're trying to point out to be real honest with you. Nobody has given me crap about the route I took, and I'm a low time wonder myself.

Right now there is not enough evidence to make any argument either way on whether or not this wave of low time pilots such as myself will have any effect on airline safety...We'll know for sure in a few years who was right and who was full of their own egos and that can go in either direction.

Your argument sounds like that of the people that don't believe in global warming. "There needs to be more research! There's nothing conclusive!"

To steal a line from our president, the evidence will be in RJ's lawn darting. Safety encompasses much more than whether an airplane crashes or not, though, but there are folks out there that believe that crashes are the only metric. I believe that argument to be spurious at best. I can tell you that an EMB-145 will take off fully loaded on ONE engine, from takeoff to shutdown, if you have about 11,000' of runway. If you don't crash, is the flight as safe as if you had two fully qualified and operating engines? Of course not, and the same analogy goes for pilots.

There are a lot of factors to take into consideration with this debate that don't get mentioned very often. One being that regional aircraft from CRJ's to Q400's are much safer and far more automated then aircraft many of the snobulators started their careers out on. That makes them easier to fly safer with less experience. Systems are more reliable, there is more nav and real-time weather data available now and the new generation of younger people are coming out of school with more sophisticated skill sets then they did 20 years ago. Kids are just plain smarter these days guys...Let's give them a chance before we write them off as too young, too inexperienced and too "unworthy" of sitting in that right seat next to you.

Safer? More automated sure, but an airplane is not inheriently, and by nature "safe." We don't think about it in our current paradigm, but an airplane is inheriently UNSAFE. We MAKE IT safe by the way we OPERATE it, not by the way it operates itself. As much automation as there is, HAL is not flying the airplane, a human is. An airplane is only as safe as its pilots who are operating it. Otherwise you've got a 450 knot pressurized tin can missile hurtling upwards of 55 people at a time at a pace that is sure to cause havoc on anything it collides with. That's not safe.

If in a few years accident rates skyrocket or even noticeably go up then even though I got in with 600 hours..I'll join the bandwagon to keep low timer's out of 121 cockpits. But until we have empirical data to take a valid position...You bitter old high time guys should think about anger management classes.

Again I hate the argument, but with the metric you're using the only way we'll see if we were right is to wait and see if airplanes start crashing, and the evidence will be a lawn darted RJ.

Are you willing to serve your family up on that aircraft? Maybe your parents? Do you have any kids? Think they want to go for a test ride? It's an emotional argument but it fits the metric that you're talking about. If you REALLY don't think you can affect safety or measure it besides with crashes then:

-Don't run another checklist
-Don't talk with the other pilot or use CRM
-Blow a fire bottle at V1 just to see what happens
-Any number of things that we would consider absurd in a cockpit

These things all effect safety, and if you were to blow a bottle at V1 without a fire but manage to land without further incident you have REDUCED safety but managed to pull a bad situation out of your butt.
 
Er...huh! Your point is lost on me. And there has never before been 250 hour pilots in the right seats of airline cockpits so like it or not....there are no viable statistics available yet to make a solid argument. You are defining what makes safety in the cockpit...Again, what's your point? This debate is about whether or not low time pilots are by default automatically going to "destroy the industry!" Blah blah blah....

You can hate the argument all you want...but prove it otherwise. All you have done was diverge from the topic at hand to disagree for the sake of disagreeing.

And as far as attitudes among senior pilots. I'm honestly glad you don't have to deal with that at your carrier. We are all not so lucky. Don't make the mistake of judging an entire industry based on your company alone. And for the record, I've said it before and I'll say it again. I fully understand that senior guys have a lot to be angry about. Excuse the hell out of me for not wanting to be their personal punching bag.
 
......
If in a few years accident rates skyrocket or even noticeably go up then even though I got in with 600 hours..I'll join the bandwagon to keep low timer's out of 121 cockpits. But until we have empirical data to take a valid position...You bitter old high time guys should think about anger management classes.


what's the saying......

We old people (high-timers) know more about being young (low-timers), than you young folks know about being old.....


Sounds to me like there is a little, young low-time, bitterness.
 
Not a bit...And for the record I'm 37, been a licensed pilot since 1992, was a flight attendant for 2 years, have friends and family in 121 and pretty much been around it my whole life. I just get tired of low time new hires being blamed for "bringing down the industry!"

I'm way past old enough to have had the epiphany that everyone eventually goes through of "the more you know the more you realize you don't know."

You are misjudging me. I see the argument from both sides of the age curve.
 
Er...huh! Your point is lost on me. And there has never before been 250 hour pilots in the right seats of airline cockpits so like it or not....there are no viable statistics available yet to make a solid argument.


That is not exactly true. Back in the day they were hiring guys with private instruments to fly airliners because there just weren't enough qualified pilots.
 
Back in the late 60's that was true. I'll concede that point as my being in error. However I'll point out that the whole of the industry, from technology to FAR's was very different. And if I recall, then, there was no mass increase of airline accident/incidents.
 
Er...huh! Your point is lost on me. And there has never before been 250 hour pilots in the right seats of airline cockpits so like it or not....there are no viable statistics available yet to make a solid argument. You are defining what makes safety in the cockpit...Again, what's your point? This debate is about whether or not low time pilots are by default automatically going to "destroy the industry!" Blah blah blah....

You can hate the argument all you want...but prove it otherwise. All you have done was diverge from the topic at hand to disagree for the sake of disagreeing.

And as far as attitudes among senior pilots. I'm honestly glad you don't have to deal with that at your carrier. We are all not so lucky. Don't make the mistake of judging an entire industry based on your company alone. And for the record, I've said it before and I'll say it again. I fully understand that senior guys have a lot to be angry about. Excuse the hell out of me for not wanting to be their personal punching bag.

I did actually prove otherwise, did you fail to read my post? Or did you fail to understand it? If it's one of those two that's fine, but I've laid out an argument that picks apart the metrics that you use to define safety, and you say I haven't proven otherwise?

Ma'am I use logic and reasoning to argue, not emotion and BS. Would you care to respond to my counterpoints or simply go back and forth like this with no common ground?
 
Nobody has given me crap about the route I took, and I'm a low time wonder myself.

My bet is that most people that are going to be sharing a cockpit with you for hours on end won't argue with your choice of religion, either.
 
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