Lost Comms

S

slim

Well-Known Member
So, you get this clearance departing SFO or some other congested airspace ".... climb to 5000 expect 14000 in 10 mins".... on TO you lose comms in IMC. Do you maintain 5000 until 10 mins after TO, then climb? Or, do you climb to 14000 straight away? FARs say fly the highest of expected, MEA, or assigned (but don't specifically say fly the expected alt. following the time specified in the clearance). My interpretation is fly 5000 till 10 mins after dep. then climb. Any controllers beg to differ? Thanks...
 
Yes, you would maintain 5000 for the first 10 minutes, then climb to 14000. Your initial assigned altitude assures separation from terrain and traffic regardless of communications status. Climbing to your requested altitude before those 10 minutes would be somewhat unexpected and could cause a loss of separation between another aircraft.
 
Here's a scenario that will get you thinking. Let's say your on an airway with two MEAs, one for GNS equipped airplanes (which you are equipped for and have been cleared to) and another (higher) one for everyone else. Assuming that your airplane can make the higher MEA, what altitude would you maintain? I can't say I know the answer since there aren't too many GNS only MEAs out there (a few in AZ though).
 
Barty said:
Yes, you would maintain 5000 for the first 10 minutes, then climb to 14000. Your initial assigned altitude assures separation from terrain and traffic regardless of communications status. Climbing to your requested altitude before those 10 minutes would be somewhat unexpected and could cause a loss of separation between another aircraft.
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agreed
 
Barty said:
Yes, you would maintain 5000 for the first 10 minutes, then climb to 14000. Your initial assigned altitude assures separation from terrain and traffic regardless of communications status. Climbing to your requested altitude before those 10 minutes would be somewhat unexpected and could cause a loss of separation between another aircraft.
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I think it would be continue to climb to 14000 as it was the expected altitude given in the clearance.

91.185 says

(2) Altitude. At the highest of the following altitudes or flight levels for the route segment being flown:
(i) The altitude or flight level assigned in the last ATC clearance received;
(ii) The minimum altitude (converted, if appropriate, to minimum flight level as prescribed in §91.121(c)) for IFR operations; or
(iii) The altitude or flight level ATC has advised may be expected in a further clearance.


ATC's last clearance was to climb to 5000, but expect 14000. Under (iii) the pilot should continue to climb to 14000 as it is the highest of the 3. There is no mention of waiting until your EFC to climb to the expected altitude, just to climb to the highest of the three.
 
Matt13C said:
I think it would be continue to climb to 14000 as it was the expected altitude given in the clearance.

91.185 says

(2) Altitude. At the highest of the following altitudes or flight levels for the route segment being flown:
(i) The altitude or flight level assigned in the last ATC clearance received;
(ii) The minimum altitude (converted, if appropriate, to minimum flight level as prescribed in §91.121(c)) for IFR operations; or
(iii) The altitude or flight level ATC has advised may be expected in a further clearance.


ATC's last clearance was to climb to 5000, but expect 14000. Under (iii) the pilot should continue to climb to 14000 as it is the highest of the 3. There is no mention of waiting until your EFC to climb to the expected altitude, just to climb to the highest of the three.
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I was always taught you wait for the 10 minutes. no different that if you lost the comms in a hold with an EFC of 10 mins
 
Matt13C said:
I think it would be continue to climb to 14000 as it was the expected altitude given in the clearance.

91.185 says

(2) Altitude. At the highest of the following altitudes or flight levels for the route segment being flown:
(i) The altitude or flight level assigned in the last ATC clearance received;
(ii) The minimum altitude (converted, if appropriate, to minimum flight level as prescribed in §91.121(c)) for IFR operations; or
(iii) The altitude or flight level ATC has advised may be expected in a further clearance.


ATC's last clearance was to climb to 5000, but expect 14000. Under (iii) the pilot should continue to climb to 14000 as it is the highest of the 3. There is no mention of waiting until your EFC to climb to the expected altitude, just to climb to the highest of the three.
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Except I am telling you to expect that further clearance in 10 minutes, not immediately, hence the reason why the instruction is there. I could also have told you to expect that altitude at a fix that I knew assured separation from my traffic. Point is, if you begin the climb earlier, it will be unexpected by the controller and again, could cause a loss in separation if minimum separation was being used.

EFC times are there for a reason, it is because we don't want you doing anything else until that time if we can't talk to you. If I see your target out there, and I don't start talking to you in 2-3 minutes, I'm going to wonder what is going on and will start to plan accordingly if there is other traffic in the area. That EFC gives me a few minutes to move people out of the way and to coordinate with adjacent sectors or facilities.
 
Barty said:
Except I am telling you to expect that further clearance in 10 minutes, not immediately, hence the reason why the instruction is there. I could also have told you to expect that altitude at a fix that I knew assured separation from my traffic. Point is, if you begin the climb earlier, it will be unexpected by the controller and again, could cause a loss in separation if minimum separation was being used.

EFC times are there for a reason, it is because we don't want you doing anything else until that time if we can't talk to you. If I see your target out there, and I don't start talking to you in 2-3 minutes, I'm going to wonder what is going on and will start to plan accordingly if there is other traffic in the area. That EFC gives me a few minutes to move people out of the way and to coordinate with adjacent sectors or facilities.
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Fair enough. I always took it as I said, take the highest of the three and go to it. Never discussed this type of scenario and I never questioned it. It makes sense that you wouldnt expect me to keep climbing though.
 
the WHOLE point of "climb and maintain xxx alt, expect xxx alt 10 min after dept" is for the sole purpose of lost comm. why would you continue your climb past the initial assigned altitude prior to the 10 min after dept?
 
thesoonerkid said:
you should probably refresh yourself on lost comm procedures.
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Ahhh you are what makes this forum great... unless you were being sarcastic, in which case I apologize...

Code: 
 [B]About thesoonerkid[/B]

 LocationMiddle of Nowhere RatingsStudent Flight Time55 Aircraft TypeP28A/G InterestsTelling pilots what to do. OccupationATC

So you are telling a guy who flies for UPS to "refresh himself" on lost comm procedures... I mean, granted, you are ATC, but I think he knows what he is doing...
 
cencal83406 said:
Ahhh you are what makes this forum great... unless you were being sarcastic, in which case I apologize...

Code: 
 [B]About thesoonerkid[/B]

 LocationMiddle of Nowhere RatingsStudent Flight Time55 Aircraft TypeP28A/G InterestsTelling pilots what to do. OccupationATC 

So you are telling a guy who flies for UPS to "refresh himself" on lost comm procedures... I mean, granted, you are ATC, but I think he knows what he is doing...[/QUOTE]
id love to think that just because an individual works for a certain company or flies a specific aircraft means they know what they are doing. and yes i was making a suggestion
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FAR 91.3 says this: "(b) In an in-flight emergency requiring immediate action, the pilot in command may deviate from any rule of this part to the extent required to meet that emergency."

In my opinion, it's most likely (thought not always), best to declare an emergency and land. If ATC is going to separate everyone from you anyways, why not have the event last 20 minutes rather than 5 hours? Is lost comm's under IMC an emergency? I think so, buy YMMV....
 
DE727UPS said:
FAR 91.3 says this: "(b) In an in-flight emergency requiring immediate action, the pilot in command may deviate from any rule of this part to the extent required to meet that emergency."

In my opinion, it's most likely (thought not always), best to declare an emergency and land. If ATC is going to separate everyone from you anyways, why not have the event last 20 minutes rather than 5 hours? Is lost comm's under IMC an emergency? I think so, buy YMMV....
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I am going with this as "best practice" IMHO as a controller. Like he said why continue it?
 
thesoonerkid said:
the WHOLE point of "climb and maintain xxx alt, expect xxx alt 10 min after dept" is for the sole purpose of lost comm. why would you continue your climb past the initial assigned altitude prior to the 10 min after dept?
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Yup as was already stated.

My fault, I was being to literal. Thinking that since the reg doesnt say, Expected at EFC, but just "The altitude of flight level ATC has advised may be expected in a further clearance", that I should just continue there without stopping.
 
Taken directly from AIM 6-4-1: I think the note explain seems clear that you have to wait until the specified time has elapsed, however the AIM is not regulatory in nature.

(b) Altitude. At the HIGHEST of the following altitudes or flight levels FOR THE ROUTE SEGMENT BEING FLOWN:
(1) The altitude or flight level assigned in the last ATC clearance received;
(2) The minimum altitude (converted, if appropriate, to minimum flight level as prescribed in 14 CFR Section 91.121(c)) for IFR operations; or
(3) The altitude or flight level ATC has advised may be expected in a further clearance.

NOTE-
The intent of the rule is that a pilot who has experienced two-way radio failure should select the appropriate altitude for the particular route segment being flown and make the necessary altitude adjustments for subsequent route segments. If the pilot received an "expect further clearance" containing a higher altitude to expect at a specified time or fix, maintain the highest of the following altitudes until that time/fix:

(1)  the last assigned altitude; or
(2) the minimum altitude/flight level for IFR operations.
Upon reaching the time/fix specified, the pilot should commence climbing to the altitude advised to expect. If the radio failure occurs after the time/fix specified, the altitude to be expected is not applicable and the pilot should maintain an altitude consistent with 1 or 2 above. If the pilot receives an "expect further clearance" containing a lower altitude, the pilot should maintain the highest of 1 or 2 above until that time/fix specified in subparagraph (c) Leave clearance limit, below.
 
I believe--and I am not going to go look it up, I am sure someone will back me up on this--that NORDO procedures in IMC is to squak 7600 and to proceed on the flight plan at the last altitude cleared (I think the efc climb to 14000 would be appropriate), until VFR exists, and then land as soon as practicable, or if VFR is never encountered to continue on to the destination and land.

The main goal of the pilot should be to remain predictable so that the controllers working him can keep traffic away. Lost Comm is not an emergency unless the pilot turns it into an emergency, and following a filed flight plan ensures predictability. If a plane departing a small airport in a non-congested airspace goes NORDO and turns around and lands right away, it won't be much of an issue. However, if a plane departing JFK goes NORDO and all the sudden the pilot takes it upon himself to land at TEB or EWR without being able to tell anyone, a relatively minor situation could easily turn into a real emergency.
 
greg1016 said:
I believe--and I am not going to go look it up, I am sure someone will back me up on this--that NORDO procedures in IMC is to squak 7600 and to proceed on the flight plan at the last altitude cleared (I think the efc climb to 14000 would be appropriate), until VFR exists, and then land as soon as practicable, or if VFR is never encountered to continue on to the destination and land.

The main goal of the pilot should be to remain predictable so that the controllers working him can keep traffic away. Lost Comm is not an emergency unless the pilot turns it into an emergency, and following a filed flight plan ensures predictability. If a plane departing a small airport in a non-congested airspace goes NORDO and turns around and lands right away, it won't be much of an issue. However, if a plane departing JFK goes NORDO and all the sudden the pilot takes it upon himself to land at TEB or EWR without being able to tell anyone, a relatively minor situation could easily turn into a real emergency.
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I would classify a true NORDO (IE radios don't work, not just lost in frequency land) as an emergency every single time. Communication is critical in an IFR environment.
 
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