logging x/c time as a CFI

Timbuff10

Timbuff10

Well-Known Member
So I fly out of a class D airport that can get fairly busy some times. About 10 miles to the north of my home field there is a nice little uncontrolled field that I like to do a touch and go at from time to time. So during a lesson of say 1.5 hours my student and I go and do some stalls, slow flight, the usual stuff, and then on the way back to our home airport we stop for a touch n go at the uncontrolled field. For myself, logging the whole lesson as x/c PIC is correct right? It doesn't seem right though for some reason...

any thoughts?
 
You gotta look at what the XC time is going to be used for.

I'll assume you're talking about 135 XC time... which only has to be point to point, not 50 nm... What I'd do is set up a separate column in your log book titled "135 XC" or something and keep track of it there. So when you go to do applications and resumes and the likes you can add your 135 XC time to your >50nm XC time to get the total XC time...
 
I seem to remember something about 50nm? Even if you are logging XC towards an ATP, you dont need to land at an airport to count it as XC, but I am pretty sure the airport needs to be 50nm away from the home airport. Or you must fly 50nm away from your home airport. That's 50nm straight line distance.
 
I may be wrong (just ask my wife), but I thought that you needed to go to some point in space that was 50 miles from your point of departure to log xc time for the purpose of logging experience for an additional rating.

Since you're a commercial/ATP kind of guy, you don't even have to land!

What airport do you fly from? I'm at HEF.

-LC
 
Yeah that is true, I am just counting it as strictly cross country time, not toward any specific rating. After I got my private, I made a column in my log book for just "x/c PIC" but I haven't been logging these dual flights, where we just sneak in for a touch n go on the way back, as "x/c PIC"

I am thinking of taking making a line and adding all those flights from the past up and adding them to the "X/C PIC" column.

Technically, it is "x/c PIC" though... I guess it would just make the resume' look better in case I did want to go to a place where my x/c time would matter. Maybe it would help with insurance down the road too?

Anyone think it is wrong to log this?
 
TheFlyingTurkey said:
I seem to remember something about 50nm?
Click to expand...


That was just for the private, instrument, and commercial, after that anything from one airport to another airport is x/c time.
 
Timbuff10 said:
Anyone think it is wrong to log this?
Click to expand...

Nope... I say log it, but like I said, I'd keep it separate from your 50NM XC time. I'm looking up the 135 reg right now to show where point to point (even your sneak Touch and Go) is valid... I think I can find it...

Found the definition in 61.1...

(3) Cross-country time means—

(i) Except as provided in paragraphs (b)(3)(ii) through (b)(3)(vi) of this section, time acquired during flight—

(A) Conducted by a person who holds a pilot certificate;

(B) Conducted in an aircraft;

(C) That includes a landing at a point other than the point of departure; and

(D) That involves the use of dead reckoning, pilotage, electronic navigation aids, radio aids, or other navigation systems to navigate to the landing point.

You can log it as XC time... just anything under 50 NM can't be used for your ATP. Hence the separate column idea...

Log it!
 
http://www.faqs.org/faqs/aviation/faq/section-8.html

What about logging cross-country time?

You *may* log as a cross-country flight any flight at which you leave
the immediate vicinity of the airport. From the point of view of
cross-country flight experience requirements any FAA rating or
certificate, you need to *land* at an airport other than the airport of
departure for the flight to be counted as a cross-country flight. You
don't even have to do a full-stop landing at the second airport -- a
touch-and-go (shudder) is fine. You do have to land -- an instrument
missed approach doesn't count, as far as the FAA is concerned.
However, it's also true that you are not *required* to log any flight
as cross-country. It's up to you.

The requirements for certain ratings make restrictions on which logged
cross-country flights may be counted towards a given rating. To make
your logbook simpler, you may wish to count as cross-country flight
time only those flights which are relevant to ratings which you are or
might be seeking. Note that the mileage requirement is the
_straight-line_ distance between two airports -- if you take a
circuitous route, that won't help. (The summary below applies to
airplanes only; rotorcraft, Gliders, etc. differ.)

for the Private Pilot certificate (see FAR 61.109(b)(2)):
Dual cross-country: no restrictions. Solo cross-country: more than
50nm from the point of departure.

for the Instrument rating (see FAR 61.65(e)(1)):
more than 50nm from the point of departure.

for the Commercial certificate (see FAR 61.129(b)(3)(ii):
more than 50nm from the point of departure.

for the ATP certificate (see FAR 61.155(b)(2)):
no restrictions.


So according to this, logging that flight of 1.5 hours as X/C PIC should be fine. Just feels weird I guess?
 
Timbuff10 said:
http://www.faqs.org/faqs/aviation/faq/section-8.html

What about logging cross-country time?

You *may* log as a cross-country flight any flight at which you leave
the immediate vicinity of the airport. From the point of view of
cross-country flight experience requirements any FAA rating or
certificate, you need to *land* at an airport other than the airport of
departure for the flight to be counted as a cross-country flight. You
don't even have to do a full-stop landing at the second airport -- a
touch-and-go (shudder) is fine. You do have to land -- an instrument
missed approach doesn't count, as far as the FAA is concerned.
However, it's also true that you are not *required* to log any flight
as cross-country. It's up to you.

The requirements for certain ratings make restrictions on which logged
cross-country flights may be counted towards a given rating. To make
your logbook simpler, you may wish to count as cross-country flight
time only those flights which are relevant to ratings which you are or
might be seeking. Note that the mileage requirement is the
_straight-line_ distance between two airports -- if you take a
circuitous route, that won't help. (The summary below applies to
airplanes only; rotorcraft, Gliders, etc. differ.)

for the Private Pilot certificate (see FAR 61.109(b)(2)):
Dual cross-country: no restrictions. Solo cross-country: more than
50nm from the point of departure.

for the Instrument rating (see FAR 61.65(e)(1)):
more than 50nm from the point of departure.

for the Commercial certificate (see FAR 61.129(b)(3)(ii):
more than 50nm from the point of departure.

for the ATP certificate (see FAR 61.155(b)(2)):
no restrictions.


So according to this, logging that flight of 1.5 hours as X/C PIC should be fine. Just feels weird I guess?
Click to expand...

a. The question starting this thread is a legal interpretation question.

b. The FAQ file was pulled from the FAA website. The front of that file contained a disclaimer stating that the FAQ file should not be used for legal interpretations.

c. The FAQ file contains numerous contradictions, both internal, and with published FAA legal department issued legal interpretations.

d. The author of the FAQ file has been explicitly forbidden to offer any further interpretations.

e. Read between the lines--the FAQ file is not to be trusted for legal questions.

That said, read the FAQ file a bit further and you will find aQ&A/opinion stating that only the pilot manipulating the aircraft controls may log x-country time.
 
VicariousLiving said:
That said, read the FAQ file a bit further and you will find aQ&A/opinion stating that only the pilot manipulating the aircraft controls may log x-country time.
Click to expand...

Then we'd better call every pilot that's ever been an instructor and tell them to not long XCs that they did with students as XC time... take away all their ratings they've earned, and jobs they've recieved based on those times... :sarcasm:

Any instructor can log the XC time that they've given as an instructor...
 
Timbuff10 said:
for the ATP certificate (see FAR 61.155(b)(2)):
no restrictions.


So according to this, logging that flight of 1.5 hours as X/C PIC should be fine. Just feels weird I guess?
Click to expand...

Look at the definition of x-c time in part 61:

(vi) For the purpose of meeting the aeronautical experience requirements for an airline transport pilot certificate (except with a rotorcraft category rating), time acquired during a flight—
(A) Conducted in an appropriate aircraft;
(B) That is at least a straight-line distance of more than 50 nautical miles from the original point of departure; and
(C) That involves the use of dead reckoning, pilotage, electronic navigation aids, radio aids, or other navigation systems.
Click to expand...
For the ATP, the cross countries have to be at least 50 nm, but they don't require a landing. For part 135 x-c, they don't have to be 50 nm.

The only fuel vendor at my airport is $ignature, so as a rule almost all of our flights involve a stop at another airport to get fuel. Good for 135 minimums.

Mike
 
VicariousLiving said:
That said, read the FAQ file a bit further and you will find aQ&A/opinion stating that only the pilot manipulating the aircraft controls may log x-country time.
Click to expand...
Actually, what it said was that only the pilot doing the takeoff and the landing could log cross country time.

Probably the most nonsensical of all of the FAQ opinions. One of those where Lynch didn't like something personally and didn't care what the regulation says or what he was saying meant.

SIC in a two-pilot jet flying from here to London - sorry, no cross country time. Give me a break!

Better yet... on that transcontinental flight, the PIC takes off and flies half way. The SIC takes over at the midway point and lands. According to the FAQ, neither can log cross country time.

Anyone think it is wrong to log this?
Click to expand...
Why should it be wrong to do what the regulations specifically allow you to do? It's not a loophole; it's intentional. You might as well ask whether anyone things it's wrong to drive through an intersection when your light is green.
 
My FAR/AIM is out in the car and it's snowing now so the way I understand it is if you are trying to get 135 mins then the 50 mile req is out, if you are going for an ATP then the 50 mile rule counts. If you are just doing it for some insurance requirement then again it doesn't matter.

In the end it depends how you want to apply it. Kind of annoying because my logbook only has so many columns. I have a x/c PIC column so I am not sure if I am going to start putting those lessons in there or not.
 
Timbuff10 said:
In the end it depends how you want to apply it. Kind of annoying because my logbook only has so many columns. I have a x/c PIC column so I am not sure if I am going to start putting those lessons in there or not.
Click to expand...

I use the XC column in my logbook for flights that meet the 50 mile requirement for the ATP. However, I also keep an electronic logbook (Safelog) and put all my point to point (135 requirement) cross country time in there, seperate from the 50 mile XC flights.

I can't say enough good about electronic logbooks. Safelog's saved me tremendous amounts of time filling out 8710's and insurance forms, not to mention being able to track specific types of times, such as the various XC definitions.
 
MidlifeFlyer said:
Actually, what it said was that only the pilot doing the takeoff and the landing could log cross country time.
Click to expand...

Thanks, I'd forgotten the exact details but remembered the FAQ file nixed the question at hand. In case it isn't obvious, I don't think much of the FAQ file. Judging by your answer you aren't too far from that opinion, too.
 
Grabo172 said:
Then we'd better call every pilot that's ever been an instructor and tell them to not long XCs that they did with students as XC time... take away all their ratings they've earned, and jobs they've recieved based on those times... :sarcasm:

Any instructor can log the XC time that they've given as an instructor...
Click to expand...

You must have missed points a-e where I explained that with respect to being used for legal interpretations the FAQ file is worthless. The final comment merely noted that if one should offer up the FAQ file as a reference one should read the entire reference first.
 
This FAQ stuff is getting pointless. There are folks on the board that run to the FAQ to "clarify" things, until the FAQ says something that they don't agree with. Then, they point out how bad the FAQ's are! HA!
 
mtsu_av8er said:
This FAQ stuff is getting pointless. There are folks on the board that run to the FAQ to "clarify" things, until the FAQ says something that they don't agree with. Then, they point out how bad the FAQ's are! HA!
Click to expand...
Yes and no ;).

The FAQ, while it existed, represented FAA "policy" in the sense that it was a pretty decent attempt to impose some uniformity among FSDOs where interpretations would change from office to office and sometimes from inspector to inspector. You might think of it as a publicly-available "policy manual." And, just like any "policy manual" in any organization, there will be mistakes.

I always thought that it was a good idea. I'd rather see every FSDO interpreting something wrong than have, for example, whether you were current when you crashed be determined based upon which part of the country you crashed in. Even with the errors, I think it's better to have one place to correct a mistake than to have to go around correcting them in multiple locations.

If there was a problem with the FAQ, it was the quasi-legal regard in which it was held and the number of times it was wrong (some corrected, some not).

There is a fairly recent incident involving the FAQ that may have been one of the straws that led to its demise - it's the old question about whether a CFI-ASE, AI with a Commercial ASEL/AMEL can teach instruments in a multi. FAQ said yes; at least one FAA regional Legal opinion said no. From the way I heard it from the CFI involved, the FAA began certificate action but dropped it because the FAQ led the CFI to think it was okay.
 
MidlifeFlyer said:
Actually, what it said was that only the pilot doing the takeoff and the landing could log cross country time.
Click to expand...

Because of the wording this is wide open for interpretation. I interpret it for an instructor this way: You were required onboard because some sort of instruction was being conducted, therefore the flight was conducted by a person who holds a pilot certificate. You instructed in an aircraft, therefore the flight was conducted in an aircraft. You landed at an airport other than the departure airport during this instructional flight, therefore the flight included a landing at a point other than the point of departure. Thus you are able to log XC as a flight instructor. Nowhere in this definition of Cross-country time do we find the phrase "sole manipulator."

(3) Cross-country time means--
(i) Except as provided in paragraphs (b)(3) (ii), (iii), (iv), and
(v) of this section, time acquired during a flight--
(A) Conducted by a person who holds a pilot certificate;
(B) Conducted in an aircraft;
(C) That includes a landing at a point other than the point of
departure; and
(D) That involves the use of dead reckoning, pilotage, electronic
navigation aids, radio aids, or other navigation systems to navigate to
the landing point.
Click to expand...
 
GaTechKid said:
Because of the wording this is wide open for interpretation. I interpret it for an instructor this way: You were required onboard because some sort of instruction was being conducted, therefore the flight was conducted by a person who holds a pilot certificate. You instructed in an aircraft, therefore the flight was conducted in an aircraft. You landed at an airport other than the departure airport during this instructional flight, therefore the flight included a landing at a point other than the point of departure. Thus you are able to log XC as a flight instructor. Nowhere in this definition of Cross-country time do we find the phrase "sole manipulator."
Click to expand...
You can have some "fun" with this one, but a CFI is almost never "required" in the FAR sense of the term just by giving instruction. Remember that the CFI doesn't even need a medical and all required pilots =do=.

But I think you're absolutely right with the rest of your analysis. You were on a flight in which you were entitled to log flight time and so it was

"time acquired during a flight--
(A) Conducted by a person who holds a pilot certificate;
(B) Conducted in an aircraft;
(C) That includes a landing at a point other than the point of
departure; and
(D) That involves the use of dead reckoning, pilotage, electronic
navigation aids, radio aids, or other navigation systems to navigate to
the landing point."

I think that, as you point out, the big point is that it doesn't say

"time acquired by the person performing the takeoff and landing during a flight--
(A) Conducted by a person who holds a pilot certificate;
(B) Conducted in an aircraft;
(C) That includes a landing at a point other than the point of
departure; and
(D) That involves the use of dead reckoning, pilotage, electronic
navigation aids, radio aids, or other navigation systems to navigate to
the landing point."
 
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