Logging Time as Heavy Crewmember

Bandit_Driver

Bandit_Driver

Gold Member
I have been recently flying as part of heavy crew. I am the only FO on a flight with 2 FE's and 2 CA's. The extra captain usually does a few hours in the FO's seat and a few hours in the CA's seat. The two FE's just split the trip.

I am wondering when putting the flight or flights in my logbook do I log the entire time aloft or do I just log the time I am actually in the FO's seat? Also how should time be logged when part of Double Crew?

Thanks
 
In my opinion, if your name is on the release, you are required crew, so I would log the whole flight time.

Think about it this way, if crap hits the fan, and even if you are in the back sleeping, you are going to be awoken up, and brought into the picture of what is going on.

My opinion.
 
Our GOM has it written in there how the flight gets split up. Each logs 2/3 of the flight, but gets paid for the whole lot.
 
Section 61.51: Pilot logbooks.

(a) Training time and aeronautical experience. Each person must document and record the following time in a manner acceptable to the Administrator:
(1) Training and aeronautical experience used to meet the requirements for a certificate, rating, or flight review of this part.
(2) The aeronautical experience required for meeting the recent flight experience requirements of this part.
(b) Logbook entries. For the purposes of meeting the requirements of paragraph (a) of this section, each person must enter the following information for each flight or lesson logged:
(1) General—
(i) Date.
(ii) Total flight time or lesson time.
(iii) Location where the aircraft departed and arrived, or for lessons in a flight simulator or flight training device, the location where the lesson occurred.
(iv) Type and identification of aircraft, flight simulator, or flight training device, as appropriate.
(v) The name of a safety pilot, if required by §91.109(b) of this chapter.
(2) Type of pilot experience or training—
(i) Solo.
(ii) Pilot in command.
(iii) Second in command.
(iv) Flight and ground training received from an authorized instructor.
(v) Training received in a flight simulator or flight training device from an authorized instructor.
(3) Conditions of flight—
(i) Day or night.
(ii) Actual instrument.
(iii) Simulated instrument conditions in flight, a flight simulator, or a flight training device.
(c) Logging of pilot time. The pilot time described in this section may be used to:
(1) Apply for a certificate or rating issued under this part or a privilege authorized under this part; or
(2) Satisfy the recent flight experience requirements of this part.
(d) Logging of solo flight time. Except for a student pilot performing the duties of pilot in command of an airship requiring more than one pilot flight crewmember, a pilot may log as solo flight time only that flight time when the pilot is the sole occupant of the aircraft.
(e) Logging pilot-in-command flight time.
(1) A sport, recreational, private, or commercial pilot may log pilot-in-command time only for that flight time during which that person—
(i) Is the sole manipulator of the controls of an aircraft for which the pilot is rated or has privileges;
(ii) Is the sole occupant of the aircraft; or
(iii) Except for a recreational pilot, is acting as pilot in command of an aircraft on which more than one pilot is required under the type certification of the aircraft or the regulations under which the flight is conducted.
(2) An airline transport pilot may log as pilot-in-command time all of the flight time while acting as pilot-in-command of an operation requiring an airline transport pilot certificate.
(3) An authorized instructor may log as pilot-in-command time all flight time while acting as an authorized instructor.
(4) A student pilot may log pilot-in-command time only when the student pilot—
(i) Is the sole occupant of the aircraft or is performing the duties of pilot of command of an airship requiring more than one pilot flight crewmember;
(ii) Has a current solo flight endorsement as required under §61.87 of this part; and
(iii) Is undergoing training for a pilot certificate or rating.
(f) Logging second-in-command flight time. A person may log second-in-command time only for that flight time during which that person:
(1) Is qualified in accordance with the second-in-command requirements of §61.55 of this part, and occupies a crewmember station in an aircraft that requires more than one pilot by the aircraft's type certificate; or
(2) Holds the appropriate category, class, and instrument rating (if an instrument rating is required for the flight) for the aircraft being flown, and more than one pilot is required under the type certification of the aircraft or the regulations under which the flight is being conducted.
(g) Logging instrument flight time.
(1) A person may log instrument time only for that flight time when the person operates the aircraft solely by reference to instruments under actual or simulated instrument flight conditions.
(2) An authorized instructor may log instrument time when conducting instrument flight instruction in actual instrument flight conditions.
(3) For the purposes of logging instrument time to meet the recent instrument experience requirements of §61.57(c) of this part, the following information must be recorded in the person's logbook—
(i) The location and type of each instrument approach accomplished; and
(ii) The name of the safety pilot, if required.
(4) A flight simulator or approved flight training device may be used by a person to log instrument time, provided an authorized instructor is present during the simulated flight.
(h) Logging training time.
(1) A person may log training time when that person receives training from an authorized instructor in an aircraft, flight simulator, or flight training device.
(2) The training time must be logged in a logbook and must:
(i) Be endorsed in a legible manner by the authorized instructor; and
(ii) Include a description of the training given, the length of the training lesson, and the authorized instructor's signature, certificate number, and certificate expiration date.
(i) Presentation of required documents.
(1) Persons must present their pilot certificate, medical certificate, logbook, or any other record required by this part for inspection upon a reasonable request by—
(i) The Administrator;
(ii) An authorized representative from the National Transportation Safety Board; or
(iii) Any Federal, State, or local law enforcement officer.
(2) A student pilot must carry the following items in the aircraft on all solo cross-country flights as evidence of the required authorized instructor clearances and endorsements—
(i) Pilot logbook;
(ii) Student pilot certificate; and
(iii) Any other record required by this section.
(3) A sport pilot must carry his or her logbook or other evidence of required authorized instructor endorsements on all flights.
(4) A recreational pilot must carry his or her logbook with the required authorized instructor endorsements on all solo flights—
(i) That exceed 50 nautical miles from the airport at which training was received;
(ii) Within airspace that requires communication with air traffic control;
(iii) Conducted between sunset and sunrise; or
(iv) In an aircraft for which the pilot does not hold an appropriate category or class rating.
(5) A flight instructor with a sport pilot rating must carry his or her logbook or other evidence of required authorized instructor endorsements on all flights when providing flight training.
[Doc. No. 25910, 62 FR 16298, Apr. 4, 1997; Amdt. 61–103, 62 FR 40897, July 30, 1997; Amdt. 61–104, 63 FR 20286, Apr. 23, 1998; Amdt. 61–110, 69 FR 44865, July 27, 2004]
 
This is a question that should be directed to your employer. They are responsible for tracking your duty/flight time to ensure compliance with FARs.
 
This question comes up because you feel guilty if you log time while not in the operating seat. That is your answer right there. Do not log time for which you will feel guilty later or for which you will have a difficult time in a future interview. Log only time spent in an operating seat.

I fly as the only PIC on heavy crews and I only log time in the seat because I don't lie to myself or in my logbook. Justify, rationalize, be pedantic, etc but there is only one morale and ethical high ground.


Typhoonpilot
 
Typhoonpilot,

Is it really unethical to log the time though?

The way I would look at is if something hit the fan, wouldn't you still be responsible for getting the airplane back on the ground. What happened if something happened while you were on rest in the cabin and you needed to be awoken to take care of it? You are required crew for the flight, if you weren't you would be deadheading, etc. If something does happen, even while sound asleep in the back, wouldn't the respective authorities still question you about your actions that day related to the flight and crew. You are required to work as a team to get the flight back on the ground safely.

Not questioning you, just wondering.
 
FAR 61.51 (f) Logging second-in-command flight time. A person may log second-in-command time only for that flight time during which that person:

(1) Is qualified in accordance with the second-in-command requirements of §61.55 of this part, and occupies a crewmember station in an aircraft that requires more than one pilot by the aircraft's type c

Im sure this can be debated, but anything other then the your seat on the flight deck is not a crew members stations. so technically you cannot be logging flight time while sitting in the lav.:p
 
Seggy said:
Typhoonpilot,

Is it really unethical to log the time though?

The way I would look at is if something hit the fan, wouldn't you still be responsible for getting the airplane back on the ground. What happened if something happened while you were on rest in the cabin and you needed to be awoken to take care of it? You are required crew for the flight, if you weren't you would be deadheading, etc. If something does happen, even while sound asleep in the back, wouldn't the respective authorities still question you about your actions that day related to the flight and crew. You are required to work as a team to get the flight back on the ground safely.

Not questioning you, just wondering.
Click to expand...

Maybe that was worded a bit strongly. The point I am trying to make is that a pilot's logbook is meant as a record of his aeronautical experience. One does not gain aeronautical experience while asleep in the bunk on an airplane or while eating a meal in First Class so why should it ever be put in the logbook as aeronautical experience. There is a difference in regards to flight and duty time limitations and aeronautical experience. My personal logbook is a record of my aeronautical experience so I only put in that time in which I am gaining such. The company can deal with my flight and duty time limitations better than me with their computer tracking programs.


TP
 
TP, thanks for clarifying that. I see the point you are making, but I don't know. I guess it depends what the company FOM says.
 
If I kept a logbook, I'd log it all because I'm a required crewmember.

I WISH I could log PIC when I'm in the captain's seat, it's his leg and he's back on break, but I really can't.

I'd love to crack 30 hours of PIC turbine one of these days! :)
 
I'll throw out a couple of portions of this reg:


(f) Logging second-in-command flight time. A person may log second-in-command time only for that flight time during which that person:
(1) Is qualified in accordance with the second-in-command requirements of §61.55 of this part, and occupies a crewmember station in an aircraft that requires more than one pilot by the aircraft's type certificate; or
(2) Holds the appropriate category, class, and instrument rating (if an instrument rating is required for the flight) for the aircraft being flown, and more than one pilot is required under the type certification of the aircraft or the regulations under which the flight is being conducted.

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

(2) An airline transport pilot may log as pilot-in-command time all of the flight time while acting as pilot-in-command of an operation requiring an airline transport pilot certificate.


=====================

If you can find them, check out the Part 61 FAQs--they're pretty good. BTW, it looks to me like the reg addresses pretty clearly the requirements for logging PIC and SIC time, but seems a little vague on logging total flight time. I mean, if you're sleeping for half the flight, would you log 1/2 the time as SIC for the time you were in the seat, but the total time the aircraft is moving under it's own power under "total time"??

For the record, I don't log "bunk" time in my personal logbook as TT, but I guess the question is, could you? The military counts "bunk" time as "other" time, so it's counted in your military flight records, but I know "other" time means basically nothing to the FAA or the airlines. The reg does clearly state above, however, that if you're an ATP and you're the PIC when an ATP is required, you can log ALL the time regardless.
 
Thanks for checking in Doug. I am inclined to agree with you and the others that posted along your lines. I have also asked some of my 747 buddies at NWA and they also log all the time the plane is aloft.

I do find it odd that our manuals don't address it and only the Primary PIC, SIC, and FE are on the aircraft log. The other two pilots are just listed on the release and log as ACM's the same a jumpseater would be listed.

Thanks again everyone for all the input.
 
As per your question, all flight time is logged from block out to block in.

I don't deduct myself 5 minutes each time I get out of the seat and hit the blue juice extravaganza just because I'm not "gaining experience." :)
 
I know this is an old thread, but it was a good question so I posed it to the FAA. Here's what the guy who writes the Part 61 FAQs said, for what it may be worth to anyone.

===========================================================


Mr. Lynch,

I have reviewed the Part 61 FAQs and have a question regarding logging time when part of a “heavy” or “augmented” crew. Specifically, assuming someone flies B-747s as SIC in Part 121 Supplemental international cargo operations. Said individual has a Commercial Pilot Certificate with the appropriate ratings and a 747 “SIC Only” type rating. During long duty days, the company will augment the crew with one or two additional required pilots. The question is: may this pilot legally log all of the “block to block” time for these flights or only the time when they're occupying a crew station? 61.51, in part, states:

(f) Logging second-in-command flight time. A person may log second-in-command time only for that flight time during which that person:
(1) Is qualified in accordance with the second-in-command requirements of
§61.55 of this part, and occupies a crewmember station in an aircraft that requires more than one pilot by the aircraft's type certificate; or
(2) Holds the appropriate category, class, and instrument rating (if an instrument rating is required for the flight) for the aircraft being flown, and more than one pilot is required under the type certification of the aircraft or the regulations under which the flight is being conducted.

Note the “or” I underlined. Should such a pilot be logging SIC time for any time they're sleeping in the back because they're still a required part of the crew? How about ‘total’
time or ‘flight’ time?

Thank you,
=========================================================

___________,

Ref. § 61.51(a); The only flight time that is legally required to be logged is the time required to meet the requirements of § 61.51(a) which
states:

(a) Training time and aeronautical experience. Each person must
document and record the following time in a manner acceptable to the
Administrator:
(1) Training and aeronautical experience used to meet the
requirements for a certificate, rating, or flight review of this
part.
(2) The aeronautical experience required for meeting the recent
flight experience requirements of this part.

With that said, it would not be appropriate to log flight time where a person is not at a pilot station in the flight deck. You may be on duty, for the purposes of part 121 crew duty time, but you certainly aren't in a position to log flight time when you are sitting in the passenger section of the aircraft.


John D. Lynch
AFS-810
(202) 267-3844








 
I log it all.

If you need to defend yourself you simply need to respond that it is how you keep track of your legal flight time limits per part 135/121, etc. By regulation, it is not only the company's requirement to monitor these limits but the crewmember's as well. What better place to keep track of it than in your logbook.

If, by some reason, you needed the time to qualify for a part 61 cert/rating, I agree, you may need to break the time out.

FWIW, my company tracks all of my flight time via computer logs and they do not break out rest time.
 
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