Logging Tail Dragger time

C

cessna170

New Member
Okay, got a question for who ever can help me with this. I am pretty sure I know the answer but definitely would like to confirm it. I am currently at about 215hrs, instrument rated and going to start tackling my commercial. I DO NOT have an endorsement for a tail dragger. That being said, there really is no excuse for that because my dad has a C170 (tail dragger). Yeah, I know, every hour is golden and yet I've been so focused on spending $80-100 bucks an hour at the club that the idea of getting that checkout has been placed in the backseat -- Dooh! Anyway, although he and I do not go up all that much, now that I'm eyeing that golden 250 I obviously want every possible second of time in my log book. Until recently I had not logged ANY of the time he and I have flown - would probably only amount to 10-15 hrs for the whole last year anyway - once again, all my time is spent at the FBO. But, per a response by a CFI that I know, I have recently logged 4 flights. Now, I did not log any takeoffs or landings in the margins (although I performed those) and I always made notes such as "flight time 1.2, logged .9" to take into account taxi, takeoff and landing. I was simply logging time in an airplane that I already have a good amount of time in, that is, a C172, his is a C170. Same darn plane except for that wheel. Can I log it? Can I log any time? I know, "type if required" but still wanted to throw that out there - cause I may have to go back and erase those entries...damn. Also, is that what you would do? Erase those entries?

(Yes, I am anticipating "get your endorsement and have at it" - but in lieu of what different CFI's have told me, I'm a little confused.)

Thanks
 
I am in the same boat... my Dad owns a taildragger. Although we fly quite a bit together, I am not allowed to log that time since I am (and you are as well) NOT the pilot in command. In my case, I need to log 10 hours of instruction and a checkoff from an instructor to satisfy the insurance companies needs. Once I would be checked out for the plane I could then log the PIC time.

Next question is 'why haven't I done this yet!!!???'
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neil
 
2 things:

1.) Theres this handy little book called a FAR/AIM, might want to look into picking up a copy.
2.) You can also do a search on the forum...this question gets covered aproximately once every two weeks by people too lazy to use option 1.

Short answer to your question: Log all the time in it that you are sole manipulator of the controls (provided you are rated in cat/class, which you are).

All together now for the 347th time: LOGGING PIC AND ACTING AS PIC, ARE TWO DIFFERENT THINGS.
 
[ QUOTE ]
Short answer to your question: Log all the time in it that you are sole manipulator of the controls (provided you are rated in cat/class, which you are).

All together now for the 347th time: LOGGING PIC AND ACTING AS PIC, ARE TWO DIFFERENT THINGS.

[/ QUOTE ]I guess that since one person asked and another gave the wrong answer, this deserves my joining you in the correct one.

You are absolutely, unequivocally permitted to log the time. Period.

If you have a private pilot certificate that says "airplane single engine land" in the "ratings" section, you may write numbers in the PIC column of your logbook for every minute that you are the sole manipulator of the controls of =any= single engine land airplane that does not require a type rating.

A tailwheel airplane does not require a type rating.

Keep them straight
Acting As PIC = duty, authority, responsibility
Logging PIC Time = putting numbers in columns on a piece of paper while sitting at a desk with a beer in your hand.
Different purposes, different concepts, different rules.

PS, I think it's probably the 1,347th time.
 
But doesn't a tailwheel a/c require a logbook endorsement? I can't log HP or complex time PIC since I don't have the endorsement, and an arrow doesn't require a type. I can ACT as PIC, just not LOG as PIC. Case in point, I was lucky enough to fly a Piper Lance about a month ago with an instructor, so I could log it dual recieved and total time, but not PIC time.
 
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But doesn't a tailwheel a/c require a logbook endorsement? I can't log HP or complex time PIC since I don't have the endorsement, and an arrow doesn't require a type. I can ACT as PIC, just not LOG as PIC. Case in point, I was lucky enough to fly a Piper Lance about a month ago with an instructor, so I could log it dual recieved and total time, but not PIC time.



[/ QUOTE ]

Other way around. You can LOG it as PIC, but you cannot ACT as PIC.

You could've logged the Lance flight as PIC as well...its single engine land, and you're SEL-rated. You could not ACT as PIC in the Lance- for that you would need high performance and complex endorsements, in addition to being rated in cat/class.

OK, here's a breakdown, since nobody seems to ever want to reference the FAR's or use the search function:

TO LOG PIC IN AN AICRAFT, YOU NEED:

1.) To be rated in category and class (airplane, single engine land).
2.) To be sole maniuplator of the controls (or be alone in the aircraft).
3.) Or be a safety pilot

You can takeoff, land, fly, do whatever, and log every bit of it, as long as you are accompanied by someone who is QUALIFIED AS AND ACTING PIC (see below).

TO ACT AS PIC IN AN AIRCRAFT, YOU NEED:

1.) To be rated in category and class
2.) To have the appropriate endorsements (high altitude, complex, high performance, tailwheel).
3.) A current medical appropriate to the operation
4.) To be current (Day, night, IFR)
 
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I can ACT as PIC, just not LOG as PIC.

[/ QUOTE ]You have it backwards. If you do not have an endorsement for a group of aircraft that require an endorsement (tailwheel, HP, complex, high altitude), you cannot take responsibility for the flight ("ACT as PIC").

But, so long as the category and class ratings written on your pilot certifciate cover it, you absolutely, positively, without any question can write numbers for the flight time in the PIC column of your logbook ("LOG PIC Time")

[ QUOTE ]
Case in point, I was lucky enough to fly a Piper Lance about a month ago with an instructor, so I could log it dual received and total time, but not PIC time.

[/ QUOTE ] Case in point: Yes you could.

Be aware that even CFIs get this one wrong. After all it's tough to keep up with rules that are over 20 years old.
 
I think I'll leave it where it is for now. It's 2.0, and I've already got my PIC x/c time for my instrument....oh yeah, I've already got the instrument rating.
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Anyway, I want to eliminate ANY questionable time in my logbook. I'd rather fly a few extra hours than try to explain why I have King Air time before I even have a multi-engine rating.
 
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... Anyway, I want to eliminate ANY questionable time in my logbook. I'd rather fly a few extra hours than try to explain why I have King Air time before I even have a multi-engine rating.

[/ QUOTE ] There's nothing questionable about this. MidlifeFlyer explains it clearly, and the FARs are clear-cut as well. The example you just now gave for the King Air is just as clear-cut. You cannot log it as PIC, if you do not have the category and class rating for it, that is, Airplane Multi-Engine Land.
 
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
... Anyway, I want to eliminate ANY questionable time in my logbook. I'd rather fly a few extra hours than try to explain why I have King Air time before I even have a multi-engine rating.

[/ QUOTE ] There's nothing questionable about this. MidlifeFlyer explains it clearly, and the FARs are clear-cut as well.

[/ QUOTE ]...not to mention the FAA Legal Opinions too.
 
I agree, go ahead and log it... its legal, so there should be no problem.

61.129

..... must LOG at least 250 hours of flight time.....

says nothing about acting as PIC, so go ahead and take it.
 
Ok for some more confusion here.....A buddy of mine and myself have been drilling holes in the sky in a cessna 140...

I am a CFI and he is not. I do not have a tail wheel signoff but obviously he does because he is the one renting it. What do you all think about how I can log any of this time since I do not have the tailwheel signoff? Seeing as how I cannot instruct in a taildragger because of my lack of a signoff, so i'm thinking just log the time i am the sole manipulator. And please do not tell me to get a copy of the FARs or use the search button. I am not lazy and ive got a copy in front of my face but am asking here just to verify and get someone elses opinion on the issue.
 
Boiler:

I am in the exact same situation as you. We could legally log the time as PIC per the FARs if we are the sole manipulators. I choose not to log it as PIC until I get my endorsement. This is what my tailwheel instructor is most comfortable with. I don't really care that much one way or the other weather those first 6 hours in a taildragger get logged as PIC as not, so I'm not going to try and argue. I'd rather have an interviewer tell me I should've logged those hours ad PIC than have them tell me I am falsifying my qualifications and shouldn't have logged them (however right or wrong they may be).

On top of that, on my first flight or two I still need some control input from the CFI when trying to land the taildragger. I'm not really sole manipulator in that situation, am I?
 
Yea id go with you and not log it as PIC, but id think about putting it in my TT i suppose..every hour counts when your low time i suppose.....and as far as having two people actually on the controls like you mentioned, i guess you wouldnt be the sole manipulator because two people are physically working the controls....ive never searched the FARs for that situation, maybe someone else has encountered this.....

on a second note, just finished the american flyers online instructor renewel, and have to get the print off notorized before i fire it off....anyone know where notarys are located?...isnt it at a bank or library?....never had to visit one before......
 
Yeah, I'd definitely put it in the total time column. I log it as dual recieved and total time just like I did my first flights as a student pilot.
 
Thanks guys. EatFlySleep, at first your comment, to be quite honest, pissed me off. I indeed do have a copy, and had referenced it prior to this posting. However, as I stated and as some of these answers denote, knowledgable pilots I had previously spoken to conflicted one in other much to the same degree that was done here. That being said, and being this my 1st post, I was not aware that 6,745 other 'intellecutally challenged' 'lazy' pilots had likewise inflicted such a horrific display of blatent disregard toward the FAR/AIM and thereby, due to this deficiency in what should apparently be common wisdom, inflicted the hardship of posting this type of question for others to be subjected too. My sincere apologies. However, I do understand the distaste it left in your mouth as undoubtedly, seeing how many posts you have on this forum, you and others have both seen and answered this many other times. That was the 'sole' reason I wanted to post this question; to receive insight from people that are much more learned than myself in what is acceptable and 'by the book.' I likewise had done a 'search' but much to my dismay became rather disenchanted after the majority of what I returned did not address what I was looking for. Come checkride/hire day, I surely do not want to originate my interview explaining ANY time I have logged that my interviewer see's as 'questionable.' Once again, thanks to all for the replies.
 
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EatFlySleep, at first your comment, to be quite honest, pissed me off.

[/ QUOTE ]

Yeah sorry, I have a way of doing that. Don't take it personal, its just sarcasm that doesn't transfer to words.
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Edit: Didn't even notice it was your first post either, my bad.
 
[ QUOTE ]
Ok for some more confusion here.....A buddy of mine and myself have been drilling holes in the sky in a cessna 140...

I am a CFI and he is not. I do not have a tail wheel signoff but obviously he does because he is the one renting it. What do you all think about how I can log any of this time since I do not have the tailwheel signoff? Seeing as how I cannot instruct in a taildragger because of my lack of a signoff, so i'm thinking just log the time I am the sole manipulator. And please do not tell me to get a copy of the FARs or use the search button. I am not lazy and ive got a copy in front of my face but am asking here just to verify and get someone elses opinion on the issue.

[/ QUOTE ]I would as you do, but for a slightly different reason.

"Seeing as how I cannot instruct in a taildragger because of my lack of a signoff" is not an accurate statement. Interestingly enough, there's nothing in the regulations that requires a CFI who gives instruction in a tailwheel airplane to have a tailwheel endorsement (unless of course the CFI has to =act= as PIC). For example, a CFII with no tailwheel endorsement may give instrument training in a tailwheel airplane.

So, in your scenario, from strictly a regulation standpoint, you, may give your friend flight instruction in that tailwheel. And, by giving instruction, you would be entitled to log PIC for all of theinstructional time.

My "slightly different" reason comes down to two:

1. You're not in fact providing instruction. Just because you are a CFI doesn't mean that you are entitled to log PIC time every time you get into an airplane. You described what you and your friend do as "drilling holes in the sky". You are obviously not providing instruction. Logging it as instructional time would be a fraudulent entry.

2. As a general policy, I do not give instruction in airplanes that I am not qualified to fly.
 
I don't think you should apologize at all. I think those things ESF said were probably aimed at (or fueled by) MY ignorance in responding to a question I probably should not have answered, and I apologize for responding. And what you asked was a legitimate question that I'm sure a lot of pilots including CFI's could not answer correctly. My response was based on my real life situation... I would not log time in a plane I am not signed off to fly. I don't care what the FAR/AIM says.
Thanks for asking the question, now I know the correct answer and I didn't have to get off my bottom to get my FAR/AIM!!
 
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