Logging Right Seat Charter Time?

FlyByWire22

FlyByWire22

Well-Known Member
Here's my situation, I'm a student pilot working on my private at Western Michigan University. This summer, I may have the opportunity to fly in the right seat of a Cessna 310 and 401. A family friend is a pilot for the charter company and said that many of their customers like seeing two pilots up front, gives them peace of mind if something went wrong, I suppose. My friend is a MEI, so I was wondering, in order to log the multi time, do I need my multi or can I log the time as dual received with a private license only?
 
Re: Loging Right Seat Charter Time?

Oh man, I hope this doesn't get ugly.

So, FlyByWire, their customers want two pilots?
 
Re: Loging Right Seat Charter Time?

Only on empty legs with you as the sole manipulator.

That's your answer. If you want to understand why that's the answer, I'd recommend doing some reg reading on your own. You're early on in your training, but interpreting regs is something you'll do for the rest of your career. Might as well start now.
 
Re: Loging Right Seat Charter Time?

@ darrenf, Why would it get ugly? Sorry I'm a newbie. But yes, some do want two pilots. I know a newly minted private pilot isn't exactly a charter pilot, but I'm a body that they're looking for; and it'd be a good experience to watch how things are really done.
 
Re: Loging Right Seat Charter Time?

FlyByWire22 said:
TFaudree_ERAU, would FAR/AIM be a good place to start?
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Yep, specifically the FARs. Part 135 deals specifically with charter operations. Take a look at it. It may take some time to figure out why the answer is what it is, but you'll find it.
 
Re: Loging Right Seat Charter Time?

TFaudree_ERAU said:
Only on empty legs with you as the sole manipulator.

That's your answer. If you want to understand why that's the answer, I'd recommend doing some reg reading on your own. You're early on in your training, but interpreting regs is something you'll do for the rest of your career. Might as well start now.
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EXACTLY!!!!!!
 
Re: Loging Right Seat Charter Time?

TFaudree_ERAU said:
Only on empty legs with you as the sole manipulator.
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He can't log sole manipulator with just a private single engine land. I am assuming since he is a student pilot now, he won't be multi engine rated by the time this happens.

To the OP, yes, you can log dual given as log as the instructor signs it, and like TFaudree said, only when part 91. He would probably be violating his Op Specs by doing this, but that is up to him.
 
Re: Loging Right Seat Charter Time?

mojo6911 said:
He can't log sole manipulator with just a private single engine land. I am assuming since he is a student pilot now, he won't be multi engine rated by the time this happens.

To the OP, yes, you can log dual given as log as the instructor signs it, and like TFaudree said, only when part 91. He would probably be violating his Op Specs by doing this, but that is up to him.
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Some 135 Operators are allowed to reposition the aircraft under part 91, aren't they? I am not completely sure as my experience is mostly part 91 and some scheduled 135 but I thought the 135 certificate only applied to revenue legs with the passengers or cargo aboard.
 
Re: Loging Right Seat Charter Time?

Essentially every flight we do that DOES NOT have passengers aboard is part 91. Its only operated under part 135 if we have paying pax aboard.
 
Re: Loging Right Seat Charter Time?

jml2992 said:
Some 135 Operators are allowed to reposition the aircraft under part 91, aren't they? I am not completely sure as my experience is mostly part 91 and some scheduled 135 but I thought the 135 certificate only applied to revenue legs with the passengers or cargo aboard.
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Right, but having an unauthorized person in the cockpit may be a violation of the 135 Op Specs, even if the guy is just sitting there.
 
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mojo6911 said:
Right, but having an unauthorized person in the cockpit may be a violation of the 135 Op Specs, even if the guy is just sitting there.
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It's just a 310 and 401. No different than having a full load in the back and putting the last passenger in the copilot seat.
 
Re: Loging Right Seat Charter Time?

Crockrocket94 said:
Essentially every flight we do that DOES NOT have passengers aboard is part 91. Its only operated under part 135 if we have paying pax aboard.
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Is it really? This in istelf is another grey area that we shouldn't argue about and who know what the right answer is. Who is paying to reposition the airplane? You could say that the customer is paying X amount to go from B to C and that cost just so happens to include A to B. On the other hand, you could say the customer is paying you to go from A to B and then take them to C. Does it matter?

A private pilot playing co-pilot on a 135 flight, I think that's different. If the customer is paying for an additional pilot (or wants one) I think they should get a qualified pilot. I see all kinds of things wrong with having someone "acting" like a copilot on a 135 flight. If you go along on a reposition leg, I think that's another story.
 
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No it doesnt, and I see your point. Like you said, gray area. However, we list it as part 91 in our records.
 
Re: Loging Right Seat Charter Time?

Our Ops Specs at my last 135 actually stated that every leg that the customer was paying for was 135 including positioning. We addressed that by only showing the live legs on the invoice, but most charter companies invoice for all legs, and it is indeed a grey area.

dc3flyer said:
Is it really? This in istelf is another grey area that we shouldn't argue about and who know what the right answer is. Who is paying to reposition the airplane? You could say that the customer is paying X amount to go from B to C and that cost just so happens to include A to B. On the other hand, you could say the customer is paying you to go from A to B and then take them to C. Does it matter?

A private pilot playing co-pilot on a 135 flight, I think that's different. If the customer is paying for an additional pilot (or wants one) I think they should get a qualified pilot. I see all kinds of things wrong with having someone "acting" like a copilot on a 135 flight. If you go along on a reposition leg, I think that's another story.
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Re: Loging Right Seat Charter Time?

Crockrocket94 said:
Essentially every flight we do that DOES NOT have passengers aboard is part 91. Its only operated under part 135 if we have paying pax aboard.
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It is all a gray area, but I have always taught that any flight positioning for a 135 leg must be operated under 135. Only the last leg repositioning home may be operated as a 135 leg. Someone is still paying for it but there is no "expectation of saftey from the public" if a pilot wants to deadhead home.
 
Re: Loging Right Seat Charter Time?

ljcms said:
It is all a gray area, but I have always taught that any flight positioning for a 135 leg must be operated under 135. Only the last leg repositioning home may be operated as a 135 leg. Someone is still paying for it but there is no "expectation of saftey from the public" if a pilot wants to deadhead home.
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I've always been taught that empty is 91 and w/ pax or cargo is 135. The deadheading home part 91 after the trip is a way to get around the duty/rest rules. You've maxed out the duty, so you go off the clock and, since there's no minimum rest required for a 91 flight, you fly home.
 
Re: Loging Right Seat Charter Time?

TFaudree_ERAU said:
I've always been taught that empty is 91 and w/ pax or cargo is 135. The deadheading home part 91 after the trip is a way to get around the duty/rest rules. You've maxed out the duty, so you go off the clock and, since there's no minimum rest required for a 91 flight, you fly home.
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Again, it depends on the Op Specs. Each individual Op Spec is approved by the POI.
 
Re: Loging Right Seat Charter Time?

mojo6911 said:
Again, it depends on the Op Specs. Each individual Op Spec is approved by the POI.
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Yes but each individual op spec is essentially the same they just have to be issued by the POI. Passengers can ride in flight crew seats if there are less than 9 pax seats so it is legal to ride in the front however when pax or boxes are on board you may not touch anything. This might make someone in the back feel better but you are in fact pulling some wool over their eyes because you are not a crew member. Whether or not you want to argue re positioning being 91 or 135 is just swatting at flies. There is no clear definition and yes I have read the FAA chief council opinions on the matter. If the guy trusts you to fly the empty legs then log them as long as you are rated.... or he can sign off on them. Yeah he's probably not supposed to be doing flight instruction in the company plane etc etc but this is how the world works and as far as your log book is concerned it will be legit.
 
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