Logging PIC time overseas

MFT1Air

MFT1Air

Mfalme Soleimani
I'm an ASEL license pilot. I wanted to fly in a foreign country, so last week, I flew a Cessna 152 in Germany with an instructor. The plane was registered in Germany.

Am I allowed to log PIC time with a non-US registered airplane? It was VFR around the country. Don't know the political impacts of not flying a U.S. registered airplane.
 
From what I remember from my time overseas, I was told that I was not authorized to act as PIC of an airplane registered in said country without at least a student pilot certificate for purposes of solo time. So, without a German certificate in a German plane you can't be PIC.
That being said I have nothing to back this opinion and am too lazy to look.
 
You can log it as PIC. You can also log it as dual received. What you cannot do is receive a 61.56 endorsement (BFR) from a foreign CFI.
 
BajtheJino said:
From what I remember from my time overseas, I was told that I was not authorized to act as PIC of an airplane registered in said country without at least a student pilot certificate for purposes of solo time. So, without a German certificate in a German plane you can't be PIC.
That being said I have nothing to back this opinion and am too lazy to look.
Click to expand...

Remember, ACTING as PIC is not always congruent with LOGGING PIC.
 
Here is a section of the old FAQs written by John Lynch. It doesn’t directly address the question, but you can read the information between the lines:


Ref. § 61.41(a)(2); Now for the norm, per § 61.41(a)(2), a foreign flight instructor may not give ground and flight training inside the United States. And furthermore, per § 61.41(b), a foreign flight instructor who gives the training outside the United States “. . . is only authorized to give endorsements to show training given.” So what this means is, that only a holder of a U.S. flight instructor certificate may give the flight instructor endorsement for the training for a type rating required by § 61.63(d)(2) or § 61.157(b)(2), as appropriate.

What the phrase “. . . is only authorized to give endorsements to show training given” means in § 61.41(b) is that the foreign flight instructor can make the endorsement in the pilot's logbook/training record to show the training given by that flight instructor during a training session, but that is all. The foreign flight instructor may not give the endorsements

 
PeterPilot said:
Here is a section of the old FAQs written by John Lynch. It doesn’t directly address the question, but you can read the information between the lines:
Click to expand...

I'm not following what point you're trying to make, or how this applies to the OP.

:confused:
 
If you're asking about how you would log it in your German logbook to meet German aeronautical requirements for currency, certificates and ratings, I have no idea.

But if you're asking how you log it in your FAA-format logbook toward FAA requirements for certificates, ratings and currency, the answer is exactly the same as for any other logging question: If what you are doing fits into a 61.51 flight time box, you may log it that way.

C152 sole manipulator time: unless there is something very, very different about a C152 in Germany, it's still a single-engine airplane and notice that there is nothing in 61.51(e)(1) that even suggests that the aircraft needs to be US-registered. So you may log the time as PIC.

Dual time. Now that's a different. In order to log dual under 61.51(h), the instructor must be an "authorized instructor" which means someone authorized by the FAA. FAR 61.1(b)(2). So it's not dual received in the FAA's eyes.
 
MidlifeFlyer said:
If you're asking about how you would log it in your German logbook to meet German aeronautical requirements for currency, certificates and ratings, I have no idea.

But if you're asking how you log it in your FAA-format logbook toward FAA requirements for certificates, ratings and currency, the answer is exactly the same as for any other logging question: If what you are doing fits into a 61.51 flight time box, you may log it that way.

C152 sole manipulator time: unless there is something very, very different about a C152 in Germany, it's still a single-engine airplane and notice that there is nothing in 61.51(e)(1) that even suggests that the aircraft needs to be US-registered. So you may log the time as PIC.

Dual time. Now that's a different. In order to log dual under 61.51(h), the instructor must be an "authorized instructor" which means someone authorized by the FAA. FAR 61.1(b)(2). So it's not dual received in the FAA's eyes.
Click to expand...

Whoa, that's interesting. So, technically, if I may summarize, I can log PIC time, but because the CFI wasn't FAA certificated, I can't log dual. Hmmm. . .

Oh, by the way - the 152 was different. It actually had an extended "external" muffler. Looked weird.
 
I've done some flying in Germany in German registered aircraft, mostly Gliders & Motorgliders. I actually never thought about logging it, because I thought I couldn't. Interesting.
 
MFT1Air said:
I'm an ASEL license pilot. I wanted to fly in a foreign country, so last week, I flew a Cessna 152 in Germany with an instructor. The plane was registered in Germany.

Am I allowed to log PIC time with a non-US registered airplane? It was VFR around the country. Don't know the political impacts of not flying a U.S. registered airplane.
Click to expand...

Fully loggable. No political impacts whatsoever.
BTW, Germany and much of Europe is ICAO and you can very well log dual.
It would in fact be not appropriate to log the time as solo or PIC, since you are technically not allowed to fly a German registered plane with your FAA Certificate if you do not have a validation or special permission (like ferry pilots do).
The FAA acknowledged training received from ICAO Instructors. The only thing that requires a FAA CFI in Europe is your signoff for practical and BFR's and IPC's.
 
MidlifeFlyer said:
That's certainly possible. Do you have a reference for that?

I'll still disagree with you about logging PIC, which under 61.51, has zero to do with being able to act as PIC.
Click to expand...


Wow, this is interesting. Looking at the FAR 61.41(a)(2) - A flight insturctor who is authorized to give such training by the licensing authority, of a foreign. . . .and the flight training is given outside the United States. . .indicates to me I can log dual.

Still confused somewhat with the rest. :D
 
What you log is your business, you'd just better be able to justify it.

As for me. I flew a Stearman in New Zealand and you'd better believe I logged that flight. The pilot signed a sticker I put in my logbook and I'm damn proud of that .6. I seriously doubt anyone would ever give me grief about a fraction of an hour that happened to be one of the best aeronautical experiences of my life.
 
MFT1Air said:
Wow, this is interesting. Looking at the FAR 61.41(a)(2) - A flight insturctor who is authorized to give such training by the licensing authority, of a foreign. . . .and the flight training is given outside the United States. . .indicates to me I can log dual.
Click to expand...
You found it. I never noticed it. Good work.

So, let's see what I learned today:

In addition to an instructor with a US CFI certificate, 61.41(a)(2) allows instruction to be logged so long as the instructor is an authorized instructor where the instruction is taking place.
 
MidlifeFlyer said:
You found it. I never noticed it. Good work.

So, let's see what I learned today:

In addition to an instructor with a US CFI certificate, 61.41(a)(2) allows instruction to be logged so long as the instructor is an authorized instructor where the instruction is taking place.
Click to expand...

That is correct Mark. Otherwise there could be no acknowledgement of foreign certificates period. If the instruction was received in a country covered by ICAO rules (and a properly certified instructor at this) the training is fully accepted for FAA Certs. Germany is and so are most surrounding countries a member state of ICAO.

Went through it, got the shirt. The only thing a German CFI cannot do is give you a Flight Review, IPC, or recommendation for a Checkride to be used in association with the FAA. Thats it and it's a mutual rule. I have not logged some 600 hours of flight time, because the rule "It's your logbook, log whatever you want" does not hold much water anywhere else. It's hard to get a revocation or suspension after showing your logbook to a Fed ironed out. I used to maintain a European PPL besides my US tickets. The Germans also only recently allowed block time to be logged. The time in my log represents takeoff to landing time only, so people cannot taxi around to renew their license or boost their times with it. Well, they could, but taxitime used to be non flying time.
 
I've logged flight time in England, based upon my FAA certification. Interstingly enough, it's logged as whole increments of minutes there, so has to be converted to the US system of tenths of an hour to be put into the logbook.
 
Cessna414JJB said:
That is correct Mark. Otherwise there could be no acknowledgement of foreign certificates period. If the instruction was received in a country covered by ICAO rules (and a properly certified instructor at this) the training is fully accepted for FAA Certs. Germany is and so are most surrounding countries a member state of ICAO.

Went through it, got the shirt. The only thing a German CFI cannot do is give you a Flight Review, IPC, or recommendation for a Checkride to be used in association with the FAA. Thats it and it's a mutual rule. I have not logged some 600 hours of flight time, because the rule "It's your logbook, log whatever you want" does not hold much water anywhere else. It's hard to get a revocation or suspension after showing your logbook to a Fed ironed out. I used to maintain a European PPL besides my US tickets. The Germans also only recently allowed block time to be logged. The time in my log represents takeoff to landing time only, so people cannot taxi around to renew their license or boost their times with it. Well, they could, but taxitime used to be non flying time.
Click to expand...

Ah!!! That's what he was telling me as well. My time started at 40/50 knots and ended at wheels touchdown. Because it was towered, I wasn't charged the hobbs, runup and taxi. Is that what block time is?
 
MFT1Air said:
Ah!!! That's what he was telling me as well. My time started at 40/50 knots and ended at wheels touchdown. Because it was towered, I wasn't charged the hobbs, runup and taxi. Is that what block time is?
Click to expand...

Yup, they see the difference between HOBBS and TACH. Not all do it that way though.
We in the US log time from startup to shutdown if the intend is to fly.
Engine On: 15:30Z Engine Off 16:00Z. We log .5 even though we taxied for .2.

Germany:
Block On: 15:30
Takeoff: 15:36
Landing: 15:57
Block Off: 16:00

Total Flight Time (Logbook Pilot & Aircraft) = 0h: 21m (this is the time that ends up in the "Bordbuch" too!)
We would log this as .4

Anyhow, on the convert from Europe to here, there is no issue it's 1:1
On the convert from the US it can be interpreted as block time unless you have takoff and touchdown time in your log which may mean that the LBA (or respective administrator) will deduct a blank 0.2 - 0.3 from every hour logged, which can create quite some stupid faces in case some American flightschool trains to JAA standards but does not log accordingly. It's a bit relaxed today, but back in my hayday they scrutinized every logbook entry I submitted to keep my private alive. It died in 2006. I fly American registered aircraft in Germany now or go up with a Instructor. Just way too much hassle for the few hours I get in Europe.
 
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