Logging PIC in part 91 jet ops...

higney85

higney85

Property of Scheduling
Ok, I am a bit confused on the matter of logging PIC time under part 91 ops that require 2 crew members. When flying an aircraft under part 91 with both pilots being typed in the aircraft (lets say a citation) and the guy in the left seat has an ATP. Theoretically under FAR 61.51(e)(1)(iii) and FAR 61.51(e)(1)(i) both pilots would be able to LOG pic, but only the ATP would meet the requirement of having full operational authority of the aircraft (what many airlines look at). I am just curious as to if PIC time can be logged instead of the convential manner of PIC left seat SIC right seat. Obviously in a 121,135, and/or not having a type rating does not allow for the logging of PIC time. What does everyone else get from this?
 
If both pilots are typed in the aircraft, then they are both able to log PIC...just not at the same time. One would be the PIC and the other SIC. More than likely, the person in the left seat is the PIC and logging PIC.

In Part 91 ops, you don't need an ATP for a type rating or to log PIC. A private pilot certificate is sufficient to get your type rating and fly a jet PIC...you just can't get paid to do so and it'd probably be a waste without an instrument rating...however I have see people with a VFR only type rating.
 
and yes... hello josh...

back to the post though- I was hearing this from a very experienced corporate pilot and was a bit unsure. The regs are...well...the regs and many times leave much to be explained. It does not seem right that 2 can log PIC other then when being given instruction but then again can't an atp do that when typed in the plane and operating under part 91 ops? I wish the faa would make the whole PIC thing as basic as final authority and any other time you are SIC.
 
higney85 said:
It does not seem right that 2 can log PIC other then when being given instruction...
Click to expand...
The "Real" PIC is the acting PIC and logs PIC time. Then you have "sole manipulator" PIC logged time, which in my opinion is worthless, but none the less good experience. Later in life when a interviewer looks at your logbook and sees x.x hours of PIC, the next thing he is going to do is look for previous training in that aircraft and SIC time in that aircraft. The absence of which, shows that you were not qualified as to act as PIC.


higney85 said:
...but then again can't an atp do that when typed in the plane and operating under part 91 ops?
Click to expand...
No, only under Part 121 and 135.
 
higney85 said:
and yes... hello josh...

back to the post though- I was hearing this from a very experienced corporate pilot and was a bit unsure. The regs are...well...the regs and many times leave much to be explained. It does not seem right that 2 can log PIC other then when being given instruction but then again can't an atp do that when typed in the plane and operating under part 91 ops? I wish the faa would make the whole PIC thing as basic as final authority and any other time you are SIC.
Click to expand...

Here's the regulation regarding logging PIC as an ATP:

§ 61.51 Pilot logbooks.

(e) Logging pilot-in-command flight time.
...
(2) An airline transport pilot may log as pilot-in-command time all of the flight time while acting as pilot-in-command of an operation requiring an airline transport pilot certificate.


The critical phrase within 61.51(e)(2) is "...of an operation requiring an airline transport pilot certificate."

Unlike Part 121:

§ 121.437 Pilot qualification: Certificates required.

(a) No pilot may act as pilot in command of an aircraft (or as second in command of an aircraft in a flag or supplemental operation that requires three or more pilots) unless he holds an airline transport pilot certificate and an appropriate type rating for that aircraft.

or even Part 135:

§ 135.243 Pilot in command qualifications.

(a) No certificate holder may use a person, nor may any person serve, as pilot in command in passenger-carrying operations—
(1) Of a turbojet airplane, of an airplane having a passenger-seat configuration, excluding each crewmember seat, of 10 seats or more, or of a multiengine airplane in a commuter operation as defined in part 119 of this chapter, unless that person holds an airline transport pilot certificate with appropriate category and class ratings and, if required, an appropriate type rating for that airplane.


Part 91 has no operation requiring an airline transport pilot certificate. Therefore, an ATP certificate does not in and of itself allow a pilot to log PIC during a Part 91 flight.
 
VicariousLiving said:
Therefore, an ATP certificate does not in and of itself allow a pilot to log PIC during a Part 91 flight.
Click to expand...
Well. This is an angle I have never seen tried. :confused: So an ATP can't log PIC when flying Part 91 because no 91 ops require ATPs??


higney85 was referring to ATPs instructing in part 91 ops, not whether or not an ATP can log PIC when flying part 91. Which obviously they can.

Example: Pilot "A" goes on a pt91 flight in a Ce500 with an ATP who does not hold a CFI. Can the ATP sign off dual given to pilot "A?"
No.

This provision is only for ops conducted under part 135/121.

PS:
§ 61.51 Pilot logbooks.
(e) Logging pilot-in-command flight time.
(2) An airline transport pilot may log as pilot-in-command time all of the flight time while acting as pilot-in-command of an operation requiring an airline transport pilot certificate.

"May" is given as a condition (allowing) not a restriction. It does not say "may only" or "must," it just says he "may."
 
NJA_Capt said:
Well. This is an angle I have never seen tried. :confused: So an ATP can't log PIC when flying Part 91 because no 91 ops require ATPs??
Click to expand...

If you have an example of a purely Part 91 operation requiring an ATP certificate please post the example.
 
Vicarious and NJA, I think that maybe you guys are talking past each other.

If I follow the conversation correctly, Vicarious is talking about two pilots on a part 91 flight, both logging PIC simultaneously, one simply because he has an ATP. NJA, I think that you misunderstood Vic to mean that an ATP cannot log any time in part 91 flying.

Apples / oranges.

I think.

Maybe.

:confused:
 
SteveC said:
Vicarious and NJA, I think that maybe you guys are talking past each other.
Click to expand...

Always a possibility.

If I follow the conversation correctly, Vicarious is talking about two pilots on a part 91 flight, both logging PIC simultaneously, one simply because he has an ATP.
Click to expand...

Perfect summary of what I wrote, and that is indeed what I thought someone else suggested was perfectly legal.
 
Thanks for clearing that up SteveC...I was having a hard time understanding what the actual question was all about.
 
You must log in or register to reply here.
Back
Top