Logging fighter time for ATP requirements

mhcasey

mhcasey

Well-Known Member
Gents,

I asked the SLC FSDO this question and have not heard back. Per my military flight records, I'm well short of the required 1500 hrs for ATP. However, if I log all time per the FAA definition of something like "from the time the aircraft moves under its own power to the termination of flight," I'm just about at 1500. Being a fighter guy, just about every sortie has about a .6 on the ground including taxi, arming, dearming, and taxi back. Throw in systems troubleshooting time and hot pitting time and the number gets pretty significant.

I called the FSDO and told them I was keeping track in my personal logbook of said time and that at times the number exceeds an hour on a sortie. I still haven't heard back. The bottom line is I don't want to show up to an ATP practical exam and have the examiner kick me out because he doesn't think that time should be logged. Does anyone have any thoughts or additional knowledge on the matter?

I'd love to say I could just keep flying for a bit and get the time in the air, but with sequestration in full effect I'm not building time very quickly...

Thanks!
 
Me personally, I never took the 0.2 taxi time thing and added it to anything. All my time in my logbook is takeoff time/brake release, to exit the runway to dearm time. That way, it was all truly flight time and never in doubt in any way; thus no explaining to do. But that was just my technique in order to avoid any questions of whether I made a correct "exception" or not; it was all cut and dried.
 
What's the issue? That your personal logbook won't match your AFORMS report?

I don't personally recommend having a logbook with times that are different than what the USAF system has -- for reasons that are beyond this topic -- but there's not any reason why logging per the FAA rules in order to meet time minimums for your ATP is illegal or wrong.

I know of more than one pilot who has done exactly what you are talking about. If you need to do it in order to get your ATP in a short time, then go for it and don't worry about it.

Just remember, though, that your flight times submitted for a major airline interview should match your AFORMS times to the decimal...but, different issue to deal with at a different time.
 
Historically, they will accept a reasonable conversion factor but will not provide any specific guidance. They are well aware of the definitional differences.

Don't short yourself on any SIC training time.

It's a common topic on airwarriors.com.
 
I'd say that as much as ops flight hours requirements influence logging, the difference is probably already covered in my hours without a conversion factor. I don't know how things are done on the USAF side, but in my world, if ops is hurting for hours and you land for fuel after a 1.0 when it was supposed to be a 1.3 or something, you are wise to at least log a 1.1.....that sort of thing. That said, I think it is probably not unknown that fighter guys in today's age with 20 years of flying experience have probably no more than 3000-3500 hrs TT. And those are the guys who are O-5/O-6's who grew up in a more bountiful time. Senior O-3/junior O-4 guys get out and start at the airlines all the time, and if they are Hornet guys, they likely don't even have 2k hrs at that point. So obviously something gives
 
Everyone's answer is basically correct as far as the FAA is concerned.

I can tell you it is very common for FSDO's located near Air Force bases to get calls that go something like this:

My buddies tell me that it is okay to add 10% of my logged USAF time for FAA purposes.

The correct response is, your buddies are wrong. If the only record you have is your military records, then that is your flight time. On the other hand, if a pilot understood the difference somewhere before they got to the end of their military career and began logging time per the definitions in the FARs, then that time stands.

It's unfortunate that the two systems don't use the same definitions on many things, but that is the way it works. I "think" (and someone who KNOWS would be welcome to support or correct my belief) that some of the services log night time as sunset to sunrise. The FAA uses a less generous definition.
 
We use nautical twilight. And that is very generous. I have logged "night" for currency purposes that didn't require a taxi light post landing. That said, does anyone even care about night time?
 
Houston said:
Everyone's answer is basically correct as far as the FAA is concerned.
Click to expand...

I've never heard of an FSDO dismissing a reasonable conversion factor or add-ons if applied conservatively, reasonably, and systematically and recorded in a parallel log. In the case of Navy pilots, they'll expect some varations if they are sharp. For example, a difference between shore ops and carrier ops, military fields vs civilian airports, training flights vs squadron ops.

If you approach it with a "is this okay?" attitude, the FSDO is going to cover his ass. They love the military guys that have real documented hours, most of it PIC versus kids with 250 hours PIC, 1250 SIC, a fair bit of that suspect.
 
True, and to mh, remember, the vast majority of our ours are single pilot jet PIC. I haven't not logged PIC for a number of years now, and most likely never will again.....probably the same for you as well. That difference is probably not insignificant as your time builds.
 
Pilot Fighter said:
I've never heard of an FSDO dismissing a reasonable conversion factor or add-ons if applied conservatively,
Click to expand...

I think the problem here is the concept of "conversion factor" -- it means that you are just going to blanket add time to your logbook, which is not right because you are just guessing, and has been pointed out, there is no official "conversion" identified or allowed so far as the FAA is concerned.

Everyone knows there is a difference in definition between when a military flight starts and when an FAA flight starts. Everyone knows that an average military flight will be a shorter duration under military definitions than FAA definitions. If you wish to keep a logbook that tracks your flight times using the FAA definitions, you are perfectly legal to do so...but logging individual flight times using alternate rules is totally different than adding a "conversion factor".

Remember, there's no time limit as to when you have to write time/sorties in your logbook. If you were to go back sortie-by-sortie and recall the difference in times between the two methods, and log the FAA-rules time, that is completely different than just adding some conversion to your overall time.

Again, if you plan on having a career in the civilian professional flying world after your military career, I recommend keeping your own logbook times as close to the military-logged time, as that is all the less you will have to explain at a future job interview. I have heard of guys being shown the door from airline interviews for having personal logbooks that do not jive with their AFORMS records.
 
Pilot Fighter said:
I've never heard of an FSDO dismissing a reasonable conversion factor or add-ons if applied conservatively, reasonably, and systematically and recorded in a parallel log.
Click to expand...

If by a "parallel log", you mean a separate logbook that is kept IAW the FARs, you are correct, and that is what I wrote in my post. However, you won't find any allowance from the FAA to apply an after the fact "conversion factor" to a logbook. If you run across an individual inspector who thinks otherwise, you're run across someone who is in error, not an FAA policy. If you desire, I can provide you with the name and address of the office responsible for formally answering such questions.
 
Hacker15e said:
Again, if you plan on having a career in the civilian professional flying world after your military career, I recommend keeping your own logbook times as close to the military-logged time, as that is all the less you will have to explain at a future job interview. I have heard of guys being shown the door from airline interviews for having personal logbooks that do not jive with their AFORMS records.
Click to expand...

I struggled between using the term conversion factor and add-ons. ATP application and airline interviews are separate situations. If conservative adjustments gets me an ATP, I'm doing it. Airline interviews are a different manner. Each has their own treatment of military time, but many use conversion factors.

I agree with Hacker15, you don't want to blow an interview with a major. Keep this in mind, you are going to have a ton of PIC time. Let's say you have 1200 military hours. It should be pretty easy to get enough SIC time so you could just use your military logs at interviews and avoid any scrutiny. Getting an ATP and shopping it with a major are two different animals.

Edit: I used my military hours only. I got out with 1100 hours SIC, 250 hours (civilian) PIC. It didn't take long to make up the difference in a 135 right seat.
 
Update: The SLC FSDO said they would consider "roughly .2 per sortie" for ground ops. The explanation was roughly "The time you spend arming/dearming, in the hot pits, trouble shooting avionics, etc. does not meet the intent of 'moving the aircraft under its own power for the purpose of flight,' and therefore should not be logged per FAA definitions."

Luckily, the problem solved itself with the new "ATP Rule." I plan to turn in my times directly from my military flight records since I'm well above the 750 or whatever is required for a "restricted privileges" cert, and walk back to the FSDO when my time hits 1500 to have the restriction removed.
 
Would like to add on to this. Is the 750 hours for military pilots good for a normal ATP or only the restricted one, and does anyone know what the privileges of a restricted atp are?
 
///AMG said:
I'd say that as much as ops flight hours requirements influence logging, the difference is probably already covered in my hours without a conversion factor. I don't know how things are done on the USAF side, but in my world, if ops is hurting for hours and you land for fuel after a 1.0 when it was supposed to be a 1.3 or something, you are wise to at least log a 1.1.....that sort of thing. That said, I think it is probably not unknown that fighter guys in today's age with 20 years of flying experience have probably no more than 3000-3500 hrs TT. And those are the guys who are O-5/O-6's who grew up in a more bountiful time. Senior O-3/junior O-4 guys get out and start at the airlines all the time, and if they are Hornet guys, they likely don't even have 2k hrs at that point. So obviously something gives
Click to expand...

I certainly agree. My buddy, LTCOL type, just retired at 22 years with 2,400 hours total....mainly AV-8B/T-45A/C/C-12 time. Hard to get time now days. I spent 20 years, about 16 flying with 3025 hours total time and I was not a fighter guy. The flight time, aircraft dependent, is hard to come by. If guys want flight time in the Navy, VT's, VT's, VT's.
 
bunk22 said:
I certainly agree. My buddy, LTCOL type, just retired at 22 years with 2,400 hours total....mainly AV-8B/T-45A/C/C-12 time. Hard to get time now days. I spent 20 years, about 16 flying with 3025 hours total time and I was not a fighter guy. The flight time, aircraft dependent, is hard to come by. If guys want flight time in the Navy, VT's, VT's, VT's.
Click to expand...
Is anybody racking up more hours than P-3 guys? I guess they really don't count. ;)
 
You must log in or register to reply here.
Back
Top