"Line up and wait not available"?

[Fixtur]

Hello controllers! Today at HPN waiting in the long queue to depart, someone asked the tower controller why they weren't using "line up and wait", and the controller replied that it wasn't available at that time. About ten minutes later they started issuing "line up and waits" and finally got the queue cleared out.

What's up with that?

Fix

 

[///AMG]

Hello controllers! Today at HPN waiting in the long queue to depart, someone asked the tower controller why they weren't using "line up and wait", and the controller replied that it wasn't available at that time. About ten minutes later they started issuing "line up and waits" and finally got the queue cleared out.

What's up with that?

Fix

Sounds like line up and waits became available again?

 

[ppragman]

Sounds like line up and waits became available again?

There's only a certain amount in circulation, that facility was on backorder, and they had to wait until they got their shipment from OKC.

 

[Roger Roger]

I would assume staffing related

 

[///AMG]

There's only a certain amount in circulation, that facility was on backorder, and they had to wait until they got their shipment from OKC.

"READ BACK ALL HOLD SHORT INSTRUCTIONS......LINE UP AND WAIT NA UFN DUE TO LACK OF INTEREST, ADVISE YOU HAVE INFO A"

 

[gotWXdagain]

There wasn’t a supervisor on station in the tower.

 

[///AMG]

There wasn’t a supervisor on station in the tower.

Is this a real requirement, or are you just joking around?

 

[Corporate Pilot]

I was told it requires at least 2 controllers to be on duty.

 

[Autothrust Blue]

Is this a real requirement, or are you just joking around?

I can't remember if they have to have a Local Assist or a Cab Coordinator, but it does (seriously) require one extra set of eyes.

 

[MikeD]

I can't remember if they have to have a Local Assist or a Cab Coordinator, but it does (seriously) require one extra set of eyes.

I believe that’s a requirement for simultaneous line up and wait clearances on the same runway, during daytime (not allowed at night).

 

[Minuteman]

tl;dr, probably comes down to local facility policy

FAA Order 7210.3DD, "Facility Operation and Administration" [trimmed for relevance]

10−3−8. LINE UP AND WAIT (LUAW) OPERATIONS a. The ATM must: 3. Prepare a facility directive. The directive must prescribe items (a) through (d). Items (e) through (i) must be included if applicable [omitted].​ (a) Local procedures for conducting these operations.​ (b) Methods to assist the local controller in maintaining awareness of aircraft positions on the airport, for example, annotating flight progress strips or marking the location of aircraft with color−coded chips on a magnetic diagram of the airport.​ (c) The consolidation and staffing of positions.​ (d) The requirements necessary for issuing a landing clearance with an aircraft holding in position.​ (1) The safety logic system must be operated in full core alert runway configuration.​ (2) The reported weather must be ceiling of 800 feet or more.​ (3) The reported visibility must be 2 miles or more.​ 4. Local control position must not be consolidated/combined with any other non−local control position. For example, local control must not be consolidated/combined with the operations supervisor (OS)/controller−in−charge (CIC) position, clearance delivery, flight data, ground control, cab coordinator, etc. Local control can be combined with other local control positions to include tower associate (local assist) or local monitor position. When a Class B/helicopter position with defined control tower airspace is established, this position can be combined with local control.​ 5. The tower associate (local assist) position or a local monitor position must be staffed to permit more than one aircraft at a time to LUAW on the same runway between sunrise and sunset.​ 6. The OS/CIC position should not be combined with any other position.​ 8. Do not authorize LUAW operations at an intersection between sunset and sunrise unless the following is implemented:​ (a) The runway is used as a departure−only runway.​ (b) Only one aircraft at a time is permitted to LUAW on the same runway.​

 

[A1TAPE]

tl;dr, probably comes down to local facility policy

FAA Order 7210.3DD, "Facility Operation and Administration" [trimmed for relevance]

10−3−8. LINE UP AND WAIT (LUAW) OPERATIONS a. The ATM must: 3. Prepare a facility directive. The directive must prescribe items (a) through (d). Items (e) through (i) must be included if applicable [omitted].​ (a) Local procedures for conducting these operations.​ (b) Methods to assist the local controller in maintaining awareness of aircraft positions on the airport, for example, annotating flight progress strips or marking the location of aircraft with color−coded chips on a magnetic diagram of the airport.​ (c) The consolidation and staffing of positions.​ (d) The requirements necessary for issuing a landing clearance with an aircraft holding in position.​ (1) The safety logic system must be operated in full core alert runway configuration.​ (2) The reported weather must be ceiling of 800 feet or more.​ (3) The reported visibility must be 2 miles or more.​ 4. Local control position must not be consolidated/combined with any other non−local control position. For example, local control must not be consolidated/combined with the operations supervisor (OS)/controller−in−charge (CIC) position, clearance delivery, flight data, ground control, cab coordinator, etc. Local control can be combined with other local control positions to include tower associate (local assist) or local monitor position. When a Class B/helicopter position with defined control tower airspace is established, this position can be combined with local control.​ 5. The tower associate (local assist) position or a local monitor position must be staffed to permit more than one aircraft at a time to LUAW on the same runway between sunrise and sunset.​ 6. The OS/CIC position should not be combined with any other position.​ 8. Do not authorize LUAW operations at an intersection between sunset and sunrise unless the following is implemented:​ (a) The runway is used as a departure−only runway.​ (b) Only one aircraft at a time is permitted to LUAW on the same runway.​

Guess the FAA is well behind the times. line B - use chips or mag diagrams, guess they know only core 30s can afford ASDEX.

Also guessing the extensive requirements of the whole list took effect due to that crash at LAX years ago where the local controller gave a LAUW then forgot about the plane and landed a 73 on top of them.

 

[BobDDuck]

Also guessing the extensive requirements of the whole list took effect due to that crash at LAX years ago where the local controller gave a LAUW then forgot about the plane and landed a 73 on top of them.

The requirements for line up and wait got much stricter many, many years after Skywest got landed on at LAX. I think we'd already switched from position and hold to LUAW when the change occurred. I can't remember specifically what triggered it, but I seem to recall there was a near miss somewhere in DC or maybe it was at CLT or RDU due to a single controller working both positions.

 

[Autothrust Blue]

The requirements for line up and wait got much stricter many, many years after Skywest got landed on at LAX. I think we'd already switched from position and hold to LUAW when the change occurred. I can't remember specifically what triggered it, but I seem to recall there was a near miss somewhere in DC or maybe it was at CLT or RDU due to a single controller working both positions.

This checks. I remember we used to do it at Camarillo but the rule change plus how that tower was staffed put an end to it unless they happened to have the extra eyes/hands. Which, the FAA ATO being the terribly run organization that they are, they never have.

 

[MikeD]

USAir 1493 /SKW 5569 accident also resulted in position and hold clearances…..later LUAW….at runway intersections at night for departure, no longer being allowed.

 

[arkflyr]

I remember this change back in 2006 in BHM when I flew checks out of there strangely enough during the daytime. I have no idea what brought it on but it really gummed up the works there.

 

[greg1016]

It really varies by facility, but yes staffing is the main requirement. a.6 is the grey area. larger facilities generally abide by this and smaller facilities (since it says should, not must) interpret it in a convenient manner (or they don't). My first tower, as long as the Tower (local) controller was not combined with anything else, LUAW was available. At that tower generally there'd be two in the tower, with the Tower controller alone and the Ground controller doing everything else. At my second tower and my current tower, the Operational Supervisor/Controller in Charge could not be combined with ground, but combining it with something like flight data or clearance was perfectly fine to keep LUAW.

At my previous assignment, which was actually my slowest tower, LUAW was only available when their was a stand alone OS/CiC in the tower. We didn't really need it there anyway, except when we did. So most of us used it anyway. I tried to get management to change the order but they were not interested. An example of when it would be needed even though we were slow would be when an aircraft had a call for release time and there were other aircraft landing. it would be advantageous to position the departure while the previous arrival rolled out.