Line up and wait eh never mind stay right there

Kimo

Kimo

Well-Known Member
Interesting approach. Sad that we all (pilots, controllers, students, pros, amateurs etc) mess up something so simple. Curious to hear other solutions. Edit:this is phnl

Quote
"Because of the high number of instances involving RWYs 4L/4R and 22L/22R, due to various reasons such as frequent ASDE-X nuisance alerts, incorrect runway assignment, pilot/controller hearback/readback errors, student/unfamiliar pilots the HCF felt that the risk of an aircraft landing on an incorrect runway was high enough that we wanted to reduce the chances that one of these mistakes resulted in a catastrophic event. IN THE INTERIM, the HCF has decided to ban the use of Line Up and Wait on RWYS 4L/4R and 22L/22R.
These steps are temporary, we realize this will result in departure delays for GA pilots, however we felt that it needed to be done. By spreading the word we are also hoping that the pilots will remind or question our controllers if they are mistakenly put into position on a prohibited runway.
 
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How about "we've seen a number of instances.....therefore, we are asking that everyone slow down and pay attention....make sure you have the right runway......and read back your instructions carefully. If you are unsure, ask for clarification."

Nah, that makes to much sense.
 
What's the quote from? What's the context? What the eff is going on in this thread?

I'd love to offer solutions but I have no idea what the hell the OP is talking about, so.
 
Kimo said:
Interesting approach. Sad that we all (pilots, controllers, students, pros, amateurs etc) mess up something so simple. Curious to hear other solutions.

Quote
"Because of the high number of instances involving RWYs 4L/4R and 22L/22R, due to various reasons such as frequent ASDE-X nuisance alerts, incorrect runway assignment, pilot/controller hearback/readback errors, student/unfamiliar pilots the HCF felt that the risk of an aircraft landing on an incorrect runway was high enough that we wanted to reduce the chances that one of these mistakes resulted in a catastrophic event. IN THE INTERIM, the HCF has decided to ban the use of Line Up and Wait on RWYS 4L/4R and 22L/22R.
These steps are temporary, we realize this will result in departure delays for GA pilots, however we felt that it needed to be done. By spreading the word we are also hoping that the pilots will remind or question our controllers if they are mistakenly put into position on a prohibited runway.
Click to expand...

This is a good thing. I don't know how many times I've been sitting on one of the 4s waiting for departure and hoping that a Caravan wouldn't land on me or something. I started a timer while I was lined up on 4R and I sat on the runway for over 4 minutes while I waited for traffic off other runways, I wanted nothing more than to get a takeoff clearance or just leave the runway. The distances between the runways are already really close and have overlapping hold short lines if you're going to 4L. I'm amazed that there aren't more runway incursions on 4L. It's the only runway I've ever seen where if told to "cross 4R hold short of 4L" you're not fully clear of 4R before you have to hold short of the left. Here's a picture:

tLSrEJL.png


I get the reasons why the runway is set up this way - there isn't exactly a lot of space to work with...but I have absolutely zero problem with giving up the ability to line up and wait on the fours, if anything, I think it's an accident waiting to happen if we don't.
 
FM_Weasel said:
What's the quote from? What's the context? What the eff is going on in this thread?

I'd love to offer solutions but I have no idea what the hell the OP is talking about, so.
Click to expand...

Context is that Honolulu has had a rather large number or runway incursions over the last year or so stemming from multiple issues (lots of GA training traffic, a large number of international carriers, somewhat confusing taxiway layouts and markings and very inexperienced controllers) so the solution has been to spread out the operation. The in-trail requirements for landing aircraft have increased, the runways available for takeoff during busy times (9am to 3pm I think) have bee reduced even if no traffic is arriving, they added a second tower frequency and now they've gotten rid of line up and wait on the 4/22s and only allow it on the 8/26s if a takeoff clearance is imminent (whatever that means).

I'm all for safety, but these steps have put a pretty big slowdown on the airport ops.
 
ppragman said:
This is a good thing. I don't know how many times I've been sitting on one of the 4s waiting for departure and hoping that a Caravan wouldn't land on me or something. I started a timer while I was lined up on 4R and I sat on the runway for over 4 minutes while I waited for traffic off other runways, I wanted nothing more than to get a takeoff clearance or just leave the runway. The distances between the runways are already really close and have overlapping hold short lines if you're going to 4L. I'm amazed that there aren't more runway incursions on 4L. It's the only runway I've ever seen where if told to "cross 4R hold short of 4L" you're not fully clear of 4R before you have to hold short of the left. Here's a picture:

tLSrEJL.png


I get the reasons why the runway is set up this way - there isn't exactly a lot of space to work with...but I have absolutely zero problem with giving up the ability to line up and wait on the fours, if anything, I think it's an accident waiting to happen if we don't.
Click to expand...
Lewiston, ID has that same issue. Can't clear one runway without an incursion on the other.

Screenshot from 2016-03-26 16:02:42.png
 
I used to fly in to Lewiston, ID with Ameriflight and with the amount of traffic to that airport I wouldn't think you would ever run in to a situation where a controller would have you hold short while still on the other runway.

I'm not really seeing an issue in Honolulu with the line up and wait clearance, but it really is uneasy when they have you line up and wait and then sit there for a pretty long time hoping they haven't forgotten about you. What should be prohibited is the clearance to cross one of the 4s and hold short of the other one. Just wait until we can cross both runways. it doesn't make things all that much faster and seems to create more radio communication than necessary.
 
Cpt Cook said:
I used to fly in to Lewiston, ID with Ameriflight and with the amount of traffic to that airport I wouldn't think you would ever run in to a situation where a controller would have you hold short while still on the other runway.

I'm not really seeing an issue in Honolulu with the line up and wait clearance, but it really is uneasy when they have you line up and wait and then sit there for a pretty long time hoping they haven't forgotten about you. What should be prohibited is the clearance to cross one of the 4s and hold short of the other one. Just wait until we can cross both runways. it doesn't make things all that much faster and seems to create more radio communication than necessary.
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I know a guy that had an incursion there. I think Horizon was landing 30 and he had landed 8 a few minutes prior.
 
Cpt Cook said:
I used to fly in to Lewiston, ID with Ameriflight and with the amount of traffic to that airport I wouldn't think you would ever run in to a situation where a controller would have you hold short while still on the other runway.

I'm not really seeing an issue in Honolulu with the line up and wait clearance, but it really is uneasy when they have you line up and wait and then sit there for a pretty long time hoping they haven't forgotten about you. What should be prohibited is the clearance to cross one of the 4s and hold short of the other one. Just wait until we can cross both runways. it doesn't make things all that much faster and seems to create more radio communication than necessary.
Click to expand...

This is my problem with it. I don't like waiting more than about 60 seconds on the runway while multiple departures go off of a crossing runway.
 
Cpt Cook said:
I used to fly in to Lewiston, ID with Ameriflight and with the amount of traffic to that airport I wouldn't think you would ever run in to a situation where a controller would have you hold short while still on the other runway.

I'm not really seeing an issue in Honolulu with the line up and wait clearance, but it really is uneasy when they have you line up and wait and then sit there for a pretty long time hoping they haven't forgotten about you. What should be prohibited is the clearance to cross one of the 4s and hold short of the other one. Just wait until we can cross both runways. it doesn't make things all that much faster and seems to create more radio communication than necessary.
Click to expand...

The issue is people are lining up and waiting on the wrong runway and some instances people landing on the wrong runway..........ya I don't see an issue either (sarcasm)
 
I hope they don't go the route of requiring a special endorsement just to fly in. After all everyone coming in should already be a pilot of some sorts and should have brushed up on their comm work prior to coming into a very busy airport.
 
ppragman said:
It's the only runway I've ever seen where if told to "cross 4R hold short of 4L" you're not fully clear of 4R before you have to hold short of the left.
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The hold lines at TWY F and G between RY22 and the RY8R APCH Area at ELP are similarly situated. You can't even get an ops vehicle between the hold lines at TWY F unless it's sideways.
 
Kimo said:
I hope they don't go the route of requiring a special endorsement just to fly in. After all everyone coming in should already be a pilot of some sorts and should have brushed up on their comm work prior to coming into a very busy airport.
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There's not an airport in the entire country like that. HNL isn't that special. Unless you're talking the student pilot stuff? I've lost track of such things awhile ago.

My only gripe going in that it seems they're always doing LAHSO. LAHSO is bad. I wouldn't accept one in a 172 on a 12000ft runway with 11999 remaining. Also, I have never flown for a certificated carrier that was opspec'd to do them. I'd imagine most are that way.
 
So that's why all my T/O clearances today were issued while at the hold short line! Thanks for the heads up.

Much of the problem is due to poor instruction. Students need to be told that holding short of 4R doesn't mean you have to be clear of 4L. It just means you have to hold short of 4R. My instructor was also remiss in instructing me properly about this and it almost got me into trouble a couple of times. It's an instruction problem more than a student pilot problem.
 
mshunter said:
How about "we've seen a number of instances.....therefore, we are asking that everyone slow down and pay attention....make sure you have the right runway......and read back your instructions carefully. If you are unsure, ask for clarification."

Nah, that makes to much sense.
Click to expand...

Cure the headache, by cutting off the head.
 
z987k said:
There's not an airport in the entire country like that. HNL isn't that special. Unless you're talking the student pilot stuff? I've lost track of such things awhile ago.

My only gripe going in that it seems they're always doing LAHSO. LAHSO is bad. I wouldn't accept one in a 172 on a 12000ft runway with 11999 remaining. Also, I have never flown for a certificated carrier that was opspec'd to do them. I'd imagine most are that way.
Click to expand...

Both 121 carriers I've been at have LAHSO in their procedures.
 
Kimo said:
I hope they don't go the route of requiring a special endorsement just to fly in. After all everyone coming in should already be a pilot of some sorts and should have brushed up on their comm work prior to coming into a very busy airport.
Click to expand...

Eh. You won't really be good at it until you actually do it. I'm all for the idea of going in with someone more experienced your first couple times, but it's not going to be error free until you've been in there a few times.
 
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