Level in 2 minutes or less...

B

BWER

Well-Known Member
Just read a briefing item with a 7110 change. We can no legally say level in x minutes or less. One less thing for the phraseology thumpers here to gig us on.

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Well its no real change here at memphis center. Lots of folks already used it for many years. Our guess was that the old fart that wouldn't change it retired and got someone fresh in there to update it.

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BWER said:
Just read a briefing item with a 7110 change. We can no legally say level in x minutes or less. One less thing for the phraseology thumpers here to gig us on.

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Just today I was told to be level at FL350 in 3 minutes or less.
 
89-LX said:
Just today I was told to be level at FL350 in 3 minutes or less.
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It's a lot easier to ask you if you can be level in 3 minutes or less then to actually use the real phraseology. You're wasting precious time by giving the full phraseology along with a time check when really you're not stupid and you understand what 3 minutes or less is.

I've never given a time where I gave you the maximum amount of time you could have. If I need you level in 5 minutes then I'm going to ask you if you can do it in 3. If I need you level in 3 minutes then I'm not going to do it at all. I'm just going to wait. I do the same thing for crossing restrictions. If I need you level 5 miles away from a fix then I'm going to tell you to cross 10 miles away. That way, if you don't make it, no harm/no foul and no one is going to get written up. Having said that, please don't take crossing/time restrictions lightly just because I always add in a buffer. Not everyone does that. If you can't do it then just say you can't do it as soon as possible. There is always a Plan B available.
 
spades9048 said:
It's a lot easier to ask you if you can be level in 3 minutes or less then to actually use the real phraseology. You're wasting precious time by giving the full phraseology along with a time check when really you're not stupid and you understand what 3 minutes or less is.

I've never given a time where I gave you the maximum amount of time you could have. If I need you level in 5 minutes then I'm going to ask you if you can do it in 3. If I need you level in 3 minutes then I'm not going to do it at all. I'm just going to wait. I do the same thing for crossing restrictions. If I need you level 5 miles away from a fix then I'm going to tell you to cross 10 miles away. That way, if you don't make it, no harm/no foul and no one is going to get written up. Having said that, please don't take crossing/time restrictions lightly just because I always add in a buffer. Not everyone does that. If you can't do it then just say you can't do it as soon as possible. There is always a Plan B available.
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Exactly. I thought it was interesting because we were told to be level at FL350 in 3 minutes or less, and then handed off to the next controller. TCAS showed no traffic in our area either.
 
89-LX said:
Exactly. I thought it was interesting because we were told to be level at FL350 in 3 minutes or less, and then handed off to the next controller. TCAS showed no traffic in our area either.
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Well, if he gave you a time restriction and then switched you before you actually made the restriction then that wasn't for traffic. It was probably just because of a requirement on his part. We have tons and tons and tons of letters of agreements. Certain facilities require some flights to be at at or below/above specific altitudes, on specified routes, etc... for various reasons. Only a complete imbecile would switch you before seeing you make your restriction for traffic.
 
I've been getting a lot of "at or above X altitude by X miles from fix" recently. Not sure if it's related but it's been frequent this month... Not that I have a problem with it or anything...
 
How hard is it to say 'climb to reach f350 by 0235 time now 0225?'

Seems like redundant phraseology to me.
 
greg1016 said:
How hard is it to say 'climb to reach f350 by 0235 time now 0225?'

Seems like redundant phraseology to me.
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Normally when you need to give a restriction its for traffic and you need it quick. If I say all that...by the time I say it, pilot reads it back...figures out how many minutes it is and adjusts his rate of decent we have lost 30 sec.

If I say level in 2 min or less...all the pilot has to do is see he needs to loose 2k in 2 min. Am I doing over 1k a min?

I don't think you would catch too many stateside controllers give a 10 min window for a decent. Heck...12 minutes and most a\c are across my sector.

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BWER said:
Normally when you need to give a restriction its for traffic and you need it quick. If I say all that...by the time I say it, pilot reads it back...figures out how many minutes it is and adjusts his rate of decent we have lost 30 sec.

If I say level in 2 min or less...all the pilot has to do is see he needs to loose 2k in 2 min. Am I doing over 1k a min?

I don't think you would catch too many stateside controllers give a 10 min window for a decent. Heck...12 minutes and most a\c are across my sector.

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I do it every day. A certain carrier that rhymes with 'net you' sometimes needs crossing restrictions to enter non-radar airspace 200+ nm away from their departure airport.

For descents we usually use distance from a fix. We have a lot of space to work with, and issuing a heading is the better option. 'Within 2 minutes' doesn't sound like positive separation to me if you are doing it for traffic.
 
greg1016 said:
I do it every day. A certain carrier that rhymes with 'net you' sometimes needs crossing restrictions to enter non-radar airspace 200+ nm away from their departure airport.

For descents we usually use distance from a fix. We have a lot of space to work with, and issuing a heading is the better option. 'Within 2 minutes' doesn't sound like positive separation to me if you are doing it for traffic.
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Its for traffic...but 99 times out of 100 it is opposite direction traffic. We have a boat load of loa altitude rescrictions in just about every direction. We don't always have the room to vector guys out to get them down or to get em up. If I have a 3 min window to get a guy up or down 2k, ill give em 2 minutes to do it in.

All of this is dependent on ac type, summer vs winter and so forth.

I was not refering to two head on at the same altitude...like you said that is not positive sep. However using a timed climb is positive sep. Esp now that its legal to say 2 min or less. :cool:



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