Letter of Disapproval, MEI ride, bummer

[Boris Badenov]

8 1/2, count em, cause I sure did, initial oral followed by an unsat followed by 2 1/2 hours on the next try followed by 1 1/2 in the planes. 1999 with the FSDO. He wasn't wrong to fail me, but there weren't any glaring errors, just an overall level of mastery *just* shy of what was expected. I was confused, angry (all those hours I spent preparing!), ready to blame everyone but myself. In the end, though, it was my "fault" and I learned a lot through the experience. Granted, I don't think it made me a whole lot better pilot, but it improved my attitude about the process, which, in the end, is part of the job.

You'll be fine. Down a few beers, study the v-speeds and anything else you felt was maybe a little marginal, keep your head up and go knock it out. I can count on one hand the number of guys I know who haven't failed something at one point or another, and not to be a jerk, but they quite often aren't the best pilots I know (edit: Any JC members who haven't failed a checkride are obviously the exception to this rule).

 

[Polar742]

As an owner of several salmon slips from the early traning days, all I can say, is I know how bad it sucks.

More importantly, though, when you have the white slip, it's done. Everything resets to Zero. I can tell you as much as once I figured out what caused my issues (mainly checkride-itis in the plane), it never occurred again.

A rule of thumb I live by: If it's in the limitations section, memorize it whether you're told to or not.

Have fun out there....

 

[germb747]

Last December, I went to the FSDO at KYIP; those guys had made an ornament out of a pink slip and hung it on the Christmas tree

 

[JoelT]

I've ragged on you before brother but, this time I'm in your corner. A fed ride is a fed ride. They pretty much all suck. My MEI initial went much the same way except the examiner punched me while we were flying. The reason? Because I did not turn the xponder to standby before changing the squawk. I knew right then I would pass. I found out a couple of years later that the fed was fired for doing the same thing again.

You'll do fine so don't sweat it. After you get you ticket no one will care about the bust. In fact, you now have a good interview story (they love that stuff).

 

[flyboywbl]

I think the funniest part of the day was during the debrief when he said one of my answers during the oral was wrong. The original question was "do we have P-factor when the engine is idling on the ramp?" My answer was "Theoretically no. We have no angle of attack (the airplane does not not the props) and no forward relative wind so each blade has the same angle of attack" during the oral he said "ok" and we moved on.

During the debrief after he disapproved he asked how far along i got in engineering school (i had told him i switched from that to aviation science earlier in the oral) I said i had not gotten that far into it. He said, "OK well let me teach you about P-Factor" he said i was wrong (in the oral when i explained P-factor) because engineers design A POSITIVE ANGLE OF INCIDENCE IN THE ENGINE, so that there is always some P-Factor.

I tried not to laugh. First off if your not moving it does not matter how the prop is positioned the AOA of each blade is the same. I did not say that but i should have. Next having a positive angle of incidence on the engine would add more P-factor. What i did tell him was "I'm pretty sure engineers design in a NEGATIVE angle of incidence as well as Right thrust to counter act P-Factor, so that their effects are less on the airplane" I then said "I've never heard of up thrust on a prop plane" He looked at me embarrassed and said "oh Ok, I'm not sure" and then changed the subject.

GOD that felt so good. After six hours of grilling me i got to prove him wrong.

The crappy thing of the matter is that he failed me for not knowing the specific Vspeeds. i did not spend 80 hours of ground learning specific Vspeeds, I spent 80 hours of ground Learning how to find each Vspeed. I spent 80 hours of ground understanding the ratio of Thrust to drag, Vx, best glide, and max range (Al Gore Speed), and Power to drag (Vy, Min sink, and max endurance) and what each one of those speeds are used for in individual situations. And, what is equally important, how those speeds vary with different factors like weight and CG. I just felt robbed because i did not get to even start to talk about that.

Oh well i get a different examiner on Monday or Tuesday for better or for worse.

 

[germb747]

That's gee wiz stuff, isn't it flyboy? Best not to argue with the examiner, no matter how right or wrong they may be. Just nod and go on to the next subject. The goal is to walk out of there with a temporary, not to prove him wrong. I realize the bust was a done deal by then, but still, you have to fly again with one of his buddies and it's a small world.

 

[flyboywbl]

I did not rub it in his face at all, nor did i tell him he was wrong. I just said I think it's this way and that was enough for him not to argue and just change the subject. Any way i had a laugh over it afterwards. Understood though that i'm not trying to make enemies. Thats why i chose my words wisely.

 

[JoelT]

Once again dude, it was a fed ride. That's all you have to say and we all understand.

More story time: during my MEI oral the fed wanted me to teach the factors of Vmc. So, I taught him the five factors. He told me that some were wrong and that I should look it up again. Fortunately I brought my entire library with me so, I looked it up again. Sure enough, I was right. He then back peddled and said that they must have changed them .

If you can't do, then you teach. If you can't teach, you join the FAA.

 

[flyboywbl]

for sure! After my Vmc lesson he told me that the "S" part of PAST is not a factor and that both spiraling slip streams are equally affective in pushing on the vertical stab. He said the correct acronym is PAT. My answer was ok. I was not gonna argue. I looked in my Jep Multi-Engine text and i could not find it but it's what my MEI thought me on the very first ground lesson.

It was kind of cool. we had a Falcon test pilot come in and teach us about aerodynamics a couple of times. What the FAA want us to teach and what is really happening is not quite the same. There is A LOT less Bernoulli and a lot more Newton going on. The bottom line is the wing does not suck you up in the air. When he rapped up he told us if we opened this can of worms during our checkride, we would probably fail so stick to the pilot's handbook's definition for how a wing flies. All i need to do is make the FAA happy during the ride, get my ticket and then i can go from there.

 

[MikeOH58]

If you can't teach, then you do. If you can't do, you join the FAA.

fixed for aviation.

 

[taseal]

wow, wait a min... you didn't know the Vspeeds of your plane?

I hate to say this, but yes, you should know your Vspeeds by heart... especially Vy and Vx... I think i'm gonna go back and re-read your OP because I still don't believe you don't know ur Vspeeds lol.

to make you feel better I failed my private because I couldn't properly calculate and explain Va in detail. and did not know Vy and Vx change speeds as you get higher...

 

[sixoneseven]

45 minutes for an instrument checkride oral?!?!? Personally i would say you got lucky with your examiner or you understand the material at a very high level of understanding.

Almost all of my checkrides completed by a DPE, Pvt, Inst. Comm Single, Comm Multi were all 1 hour at the most for the oral portion.

 

[flyboywbl]

Almost all of my checkrides completed by a DPE, Pvt, Inst. Comm Single, Comm Multi were all 1 hour at the most for the oral portion.

I should say that all the Oral's i have to compare have been with the same examiner except the MEI ride. The same guy does a lot of rides at my flight school. But i've never herd of and oral (first hand) that was less than an hour. Not saying it's not unheard of but i've never seen it.

-Matt

 

[germb747]

No worries man! I'm taking my MEI ride next week but fortunately it should be pretty quick since I already did my Initial-CFI. Now that sucked--6 1/2hr oral, 2hr flight.

Reason number 550 to never let your CFI expire!

 

[flyinguitar]

What the FAA want us to teach and what is really happening is not quite the same. There is A LOT less Bernoulli and a lot more Newton going on. The bottom line is the wing does not suck you up in the air. When he rapped up he told us if we opened this can of worms during our checkride, we would probably fail so stick to the pilot's handbook's definition for how a wing flies. All i need to do is make the FAA happy during the ride, get my ticket and then i can go from there.

I completely agree - just tell the FAA what they want to hear, and pass your ride.

BUT, if you really want to know how a wing works 1) good luck - even the smartest engineers don't have it all figured out yet, and 2) try not to think that the Newton and Bernoulli explanations are different. You can explain 100% of lift generated using Newton's laws, and you can explain 100% of lift generated using Bernoulli's principle. They are different perspectives on the same phenomenon, both correct, and both useful for different purposes. Aeronautical engineers predominantly use the Bernoulli pressure perspective to design airfoils and other airplane shapes. I find the explanation of lift using Newton's laws to be the most intuitive and simple to understand, although the FAA doesn't agree with me.

And regarding my previous comments about memorizing V-speeds... after reading the several thoughtful responses, I've modified my thoughts to the following: what I *really* meant was that all students (through commercial) should be made to memorize V-speeds for the airplanes they fly (which will be light piston singles and twins 99% of the time), and that there is more to that requirement than just pointless forced memorization. However, when you depart the realm of flight training and find yourself current many different airplanes, or in airplanes that gross above 10,000 lbs. (or 100,000 lbs. !), rote memorization of every single speed in your aircraft may very well have outlived its usefulness.

Oh and a link to a great discussion of the whole Bernoulli/Newton/Lift issue courtesy of NASA: http://www.grc.nasa.gov/WWW/K-12/airplane/bernnew.html

 

[flyboywbl]

We i got the redo tomorrow at 830 am with the same guy. That will probably work out better since he has seen every thing that i did. So hopefully the checkride won't be a full six hours again.

-Matt

 

[germb747]

well, good luck my friend. Try to forget about last week. By now surly you have your V speeds down, so show him you won't let failure bring you down. The flight should be the easy part; you've seen it all before.

 

[SpiraMirabilis]

I busted my MEI ride on turns around a point, I had never done them before in a Seminole. I felt like a retard.

 

[taseal]

I busted my MEI ride on turns around a point, I had never done them before in a Seminole. I felt like a retard.

ouch

 

[flyboywbl]

Well i passed my MEI ride today :nana2:. It was easy but long. we started the oral again at 830 am and did not finish the flight until 2pm. I swear he had to fail me. No matter what he was going to fail meat a quota. I know i should of known the V speeds but today there were many things i thought he was gonna fail me on for not knowing but he did not say a word and during the debrief he said everything was fine.

There is a debate about this about weather or not the examiners need to keep a certain pass fail rate. If an examiner passes every one no mater how good of pilots they were then people start getting suspicious. Not saying i did not deserve the disapproval on Friday but i thought, on the checkride on friday, he was grilling me a lot harder than today. It seemed like today he wanted to pass me vs friday he wanted to fail me. Case in point. During one of the engine out demos i forgot to grab a check list. When i started to recover he said "and you would of course pull out the checklist and go over the emergency section." and i said "yes of corse".
I also forgot to do clearing turns before our power stall and he did not say a word. i just thought it was strange. Maybe he was in a crappy mood on friday and a good mood today. I'm not sure. oh well. I got the ticket in had and i aint going to let it expire because i'm NOT going through that again .

-Matt