Letter of Disapproval, MEI ride, bummer

Another extreme example comes from about 10 years ago when I was flying an old archer around. The airspeed indicator was having trouble, so it was changed.....with an airspeed indicator that had wrong markings. The white arc was about 20 knots off, and the red line at the end was about 15 knots off. Had I not known the speeds, the potential of losing airplane parts was there.

I'm pretty sure thats illegal. I'm not an expert on mechanic-type regs, but don't all planes need to have their limitations placarded? I know all planes need to have Va placarded somewhere, whether it be on a little sign attached to the panel, or on the actual airspeed indicator itself. Vne, Vso, etc, all are considered limitations afaik. So technically your Archer was not airworthy.

If the plane was manufactured before those v-speeds were required to be placarded (if thats even the case), then by all means making you memorize v-speeds is justified. But otherwise, I don't see the point, other than the "gee-whiz" factor.
 
I agree.....the MEI was an initial, and will tend to be tougher.

Almost everybody fails the initial the first time, regardless of the rating.
 
I taught the whole Vmc presentation with out looking at one note or book.

that and not knowing vspeeds for the airplane were your downfall. You may know everything about everything, but you should be using lesson plans when you teach, hence the whole point of a lesson plan.

tough luck not knowing the speeds and getting busted for it, but i have to think something else was weak because the PTS says consistently exceeds standards, you make it sound like you only exceeded 1 standard.

good luck next time
 
I would just like to take this opportunity to say that I think making students memorize v-speeds is really stupid. The plane I fly now there are only really two speeds I need to remember: quarter flap speed, which is 190, and half flap/gear down speed which is around 170. Rotation speed, V1, V2, etc are all dependent on aircraft weight, so we have a chart to figure those out. Vne is the red line at the end of the airspeed indicator. Stall speed is the bottom of the white arc, etc. Why make me memorize those speeds when they are clearly marked on the airspeed indicator. The only time you ever need to know the actual number is when you're on the ground, outside the cockpit. So that begs the question, why is such an item required as part of the practical test? Theres nothing "practical" about that knowledge...
Vy and Vx, as well as some other speeds like Va are not marked. on the newer glass cockpits (avidyne and g1000) they are though. but not on the steams
 
6hr oral? Sorry it happened to you but if an inspector/check pilot can not cover the material to determine if you are ready for the privileges, there is a problem with the inspector/check airman.

As for feeling like a failure, move on. You're not a failure.. the ride or oral that day didn't meet the standards (??) of that inspector on that day. Sorta like you're the fastest guy for 3 yrs and you go to the Olympics and pull a hamstring.. and then you don't even qualify. A one day snapshot..

Learn from the event. As a CFI, it may even help you better prepare your students and to assist your students if they fail to meet standard on a given day.
 
No worries man! I'm taking my MEI ride next week but fortunately it should be pretty quick since I already did my Initial-CFI. Now that sucked--6 1/2hr oral, 2hr flight.
 
All these super long orals and flights for the CFI! My CFI oral was maybe 2 1/2 hours, and the flight maybe 1.5
 
I'll second the notion that memorizing V-speeds is not entirely useless, but pretty close.

Vx, Vy, Va, best glide speed, Vs0, Vs1, and I'm sure others that slip my mind at the moment are all dependent on weight and/or density altitude. We can spit out numbers that are solid for a max gross weight aircraft on a standard day, but how often does that happen?

As has been mentioned, airspeeds such as Vne, Vno, and Vfe are marked on the airspeed indicator as well. I can't think of any reason to memorize numbers that are *always* right in front of the pilot.

Any fixed speed that isn't clearly marked, such as max gear extension/retraction speeds, and maybe flap setting speeds should be memorized, but that's not much.

Of course I think all pilots should have a close estimate of the speeds memorized, and more importantly, CFIs should have a good understanding of the relationship between factors like speed, weight, angle of attack, and density altitude. But straight up memorizing every speed...I just don't see the point. The concept is way more important than the number.

We should teach people to feel the plane. Landing should happen when the wing is "done flying" regardless of the speed, climbing should produce the best vertical speed possible, etc., yet then we go and stick a bunch of numbers in peoples' heads and tell them they're really important, important enough to bust a checkride over, yet they only work a small percentage of the time. Doesn't make sense to me...



As for busting the checkride, sorry about that. All the other words of advice here have been good. Nobody's perfect, it happens, keep learning and move on...
 
I can't think of any reason to memorize numbers that are *always* right in front of the pilot.

The concept is way more important than the number.

We should teach people to feel the plane. Landing should happen when the wing is "done flying" regardless of the speed, climbing should produce the best vertical speed possible, etc.

Do you, on every climb, conduct an experiment to determine which exact speed provides the best climb rate given current atmospheric conditions and aircraft weight, as opposed to climbing at published Vy?

I'm going to have to disagree with the notion that V-speeds should not have to be memorized for light singles and twins.

I agree that there are important concepts behind V-speeds that, when understood, are more valuable than simply a memorized number. I also agree that since many of the V-speeds are easily referenced in the cockpit, having the numbers memorized is not absolutely necessary to fly safely and properly.

However, there is still benefit to memorizing them. It develops a total, overall picture of the airplanes performance envelope and limitations. Having the number in your head reduces the amount of time needed to access it, improving the chances that you will use it properly. If you have to reference the placard that states gear extension speed every time you extend the gear, you are adding extra steps and not displaying the level of mastery I feel pilots should.

Also, I don't feel it's very difficult to memorize V-speeds. I have had students kick and scream about memorizing them, and I felt it was nothing other than mental laziness - which is not something I want to support by allowing them to not memorize them.

Bummer about your ride, but you'll do great the second time and the whole ordeal will soon become a past experience that helped make you a better pilot.
 
Do you, on every climb, conduct an experiment to determine which exact speed provides the best climb rate given current atmospheric conditions and aircraft weight, as opposed to climbing at published Vy?

Yes, I do. It's called a Takeoff and Landing (TOLD) card. When I could be flying the same airplane at 840K gross weight or 450K, having a certain "exact speed that provides the best climb rate" memorized is next to useless. Now I agree that if a speed is a limitation (i.e. max flap extension speeds), it needs to be memorized. What about knowing what is the minimum safe speed clean is? It'll probably be in the form of Vref plus a certain value at a given time, rather than a specific number always.

I know in general aviation (light aircraft) it isn't really approached that way, but there can be a wide variance in gross weight and atmospheric conditions just the same, so I don't see why people don't "conduct an experiment" (i.e. run a chart in the manual) even when flying small airplanes. Failure to do that, IMO, is being lazy. I'd rather my student understand the concepts and trends as to what will happen to various airspeeds as the environment changes, and the ability to reference the correct speeds for the conditions, rather than just be able to spit out "my CFI said that Vy is 76 knots so that's what I'm going to fly every time".
 
However, there is still benefit to memorizing them. It develops a total, overall picture of the airplanes performance envelope and limitations. Having the number in your head reduces the amount of time needed to access it, improving the chances that you will use it properly. If you have to reference the placard that states gear extension speed every time you extend the gear, you are adding extra steps and not displaying the level of mastery I feel pilots should.

You can still have a "total, overall picture of the airplane performance envelope and limitations" (or at least a pretty darn good overall picture) without knowing the exact number that relates to the best rate of climb or whatever.

In the plane I fly, I pretty much manage airspeed pictorially. I don't think of Vne as "252 knots", I think of it as "that red line at about 10 o'clock on the airspeed dial". I don't think of quarter flap speed as "220 knots", I think of it as "two notches (20 knots) below the red Vne line on the airspeed indicator. I think of gear down speed as "two notches above the white arc, at about 6 o'clock", etc.

If you were to ask me what Vne is for the C-152, which I have flown over 800 hours in and have done 3 check rides in, I couldn't tell you the exact answer. All I could tell you is "its somewhere around the 11 o'clock position on the airspeed dial. Since you cruise at around 90 knots, which is about 7 o'clock, I'm going to guess Vne is around 160 knots". If I told that to a DPE during a checkride, I'd fail. But thats how my brain manages airspeed. In either case, if you place an airspeed dial in front of me, I'll tell you the exact speeds you want me to tell you.
 
Do you, on every climb, conduct an experiment to determine which exact speed provides the best climb rate given current atmospheric conditions and aircraft weight, as opposed to climbing at published Vy?

When the operation calls for it, yes.

Flying jumpers I do it all the time. On a hot summer day, taking a 182 at max gross weight to 11,500 MSL requires the use of a little experimentation. Right after takeoff the published Vy speed works alright. As altitude increases, the airspeed slowly decreases in order to achieve best rate of climb. Towards the top of the climb, if I tried to use published Vy there is no way I'd make it all the way to altitude.

Same for flying my 140. When it's just me and half fuel in the plane, it handles considerably different than at max gross weight. I'd put it on the order of 5 to 10 knots different, depending on what I'm trying to do. It is a small, low-powered aircraft that is very sensitive to differences in weight.

I just started thumbing through my T206H POH, also. Book values can vary considerably based on external factors. In the 206, Va at 3600 pounds is 125 kias. Va at 2300 pounds is 106. Which one should I memorize?

And this brings me to another point that I've noticed with modern aircraft--very few, if any, POHs have a straight table that says, "Vy = x knots," "Vx = x knots," etc. anymore. They have specific speeds listed in their checklists, and have guidelines for speeds to use with their normal operations, but I can't find and new Cessna checklists that actually use the term "Vx" or "Vy" with a specific number attached to it.

However, there is still benefit to memorizing them. It develops a total, overall picture of the airplanes performance envelope and limitations. Having the number in your head reduces the amount of time needed to access it, improving the chances that you will use it properly. If you have to reference the placard that states gear extension speed every time you extend the gear, you are adding extra steps and not displaying the level of mastery I feel pilots should.

I agree.

Also, I don't feel it's very difficult to memorize V-speeds. I have had students kick and scream about memorizing them, and I felt it was nothing other than mental laziness - which is not something I want to support by allowing them to not memorize them.

Fair enough, but it gets a lot tougher to memorize all these random numbers when you're flying multiple aircraft types on a regular basis. I fly a C-140, C-172, C-182, and T206 on a weekly basis, not to mention occasionally ferrying a plane or doing flight reviews or IPCs in other aircraft. I think if I cared that much about memorizing every single V speed for every aircraft I fly, I'd slowly drive myself crazy.
 
well I got a call this morning from my CFI saying that the other guy who had his CFI ride yesterday (who got discontinued due to weather) is finishing up today. The examiner might be able to do mine as well. So i'm on call til they are done. hopefully i'll get another crack at it. and hopefully it won't be another six hour oral!
 
I busted my Initial as well... I got over it. You'll feel fine too once you finish the ride. On mine, he told me we had run out of time for the day - like yours, my oral was about six hours. It was a Friday, and I felt great that I had gotten through the dreaded oral... especially with a FSDO inspector! My flight was scheduled for the following Wednesday, which I was fine with, as it would give me a few days to "catch my breath." Well, come Tuesday morning, I get a phone call bright and early from the FSDO. It's my examiner, and he explains to me that I need to bring in another 8710 the next day, because he "didn't feel comfortable" with one of my answers from Friday (airspace), and was obligated to give me a notice of disapproval. Wow. I was shocked. I got a 61.49 endorsement from my instructor and marched back in there on Wednesday. The remainder of the oral lasted 20 minutes then we went out and flew. The flight went great - two hours later, I had my ticket. So I guess my word of advice, similar to the others, is to just take it in stride and move on. I've been instructing for a little over a year now and the experience has been great. Good luck to you!
 
Hey man - just study up and you'll pass it the next time. V speeds are pretty much non-negotiable no matter what. They expect that rote memorization at a minimum - hopefully you can explain it all up to the correlation level.

True.

I've had add-on applicants who's oral consisted of V speeds and maybe a few systems. Not knowing the limitations, V speeds, and systems (which are all gimmies) is a major oversight that I've seen CFI's and applicants ignore - big no no.

Learn from it.

When you're a CFI, thou shalt never let thy students not know thy aircraft's V speeds.
 
I get a phone call bright and early from the FSDO. It's my examiner, and he explains to me that I need to bring in another 8710 the next day, because he "didn't feel comfortable" with one of my answers from Friday (airspace), and was obligated to give me a notice of disapproval. Wow.

YHGTBFKM! :drool: Busted you over the phone, four days after the fact?!?!? :banghead:

I knew some of the guys were spineless, but that's a new one. What kind of paperwork did he give you on Friday? He has to give you something (either a temporary, pink slip, or a discontinuance), and he can't give you both a pink slip and a letter of discontinuance on the same event! Not to mention that if you bust for something, he's supposed to stop the ride on the spot and give you the option to continue. Unbelievable!
 
I thought they had to tell you that you busted the moment that it happened. That guy was allowed to think about one of your answers for 4 days and then find it unsatisfactory, that really sucks. Talk about spineless.
 
I thought they had to tell you that you busted the moment that it happened. That guy was allowed to think about one of your answers for 4 days and then find it unsatisfactory, that really sucks. Talk about spineless.
I too though that. I would challenge that but knowing the FAA, nothing would turn out of it.
 
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