Left 360s????

bdhill1979

Gone West
So today I heard Salt Lake Approach issue "left 360s" to an IFR aircraft today for metering into SLC.

I have never heard of this, and am very confused as to why they would not just issue a hold.

Thoughts?
 

Tram

Well-Known Member
Even better, the other day a Compass flight headed into MEM was supposed to cross Ltown at 10,000.. Well, they crossed it at 11,000 and in order to MAKE THEIR CROSSING RESTRICTION executed their OWN left 360 back to Ltown at 10...

Needless to say, the controller went.. umm.. berzerk... ;)
 

surreal1221

Well-Known Member
So today I heard Salt Lake Approach issue "left 360s" to an IFR aircraft today for metering into SLC.

I have never heard of this, and am very confused as to why they would not just issue a hold.

Thoughts?
The aircraft very well may have been well above any MVA, MSA, MEA, or other assortment of minimum altitudes. Further, giving a holding instruction, and an EFC, just so he can do one lap around might not have been on the controller's agenda.

So, the left 360 degree turn was utilized. It's the same as, say you're on heading 180 inbound on an arrival, still about 50 miles from a fix. Controller tells you to turn 90 degrees left for in-trail separation. . .then before you reach 090, he tells you continue turn to heading 360 for in-trail separation. . .then before you reach 360, he tells you continue turn to heading 220 for sequencing, then of course, as you near 220 degrees he tells you to just continue to heading 180 and direct the "FIX" when able.

Nothing wrong, just rare.
 

BobDDuck

Island Bus Driver
Well, for one thing, a 360 takes less time then a hold. Also, it's an easier clearance to give and it's pretty easy to fly.

That's a cute trick Compass played. Maybe they thought nobody would notice.
 

bdhill1979

Gone West
The aircraft very well may have been well above any MVA, MSA, MEA, or other assortment of minimum altitudes. Further, giving a holding instruction, and an EFC, just so he can do one lap around might not have been on the controller's agenda.

So, the left 360 degree turn was utilized.

Nothing wrong, just rare.
He was well above all of the altitudes, and he was told it would be 10 to 20 minutes. We switched to center before the conclusion so I don't know more than that. Yes it was severe VMC at the time, but I don't think that should matter for an IFR aircraft.

Not that it was a big deal, just seems extremely odd and as I said, I never knew they could issue that kind of instruction under IFR.
 

Baronman

Well-Known Member
Yeh.. :)

They noticed.. Even gave them an 888 number to call.. ;)
You're kidding right about the Compass aircraft doing that right? So not only did they not make their crossing restriction, they had a MAJOR lateral deviation. Turning around at a point on an arrival is asking to go head to head to another aircraft. Most busy arrivals have aircraft about 10 miles in trail.
 

Airdale

Well-Known Member
Even better, the other day a Compass flight headed into MEM was supposed to cross Ltown at 10,000.. Well, they crossed it at 11,000 and in order to MAKE THEIR CROSSING RESTRICTION executed their OWN left 360 back to Ltown at 10...

Needless to say, the controller went.. umm.. berzerk... ;)
:rotfl: Oh my, that is FUNNY! And I thought Compass had higher minimums...thus higher time pilots....hmmmmm....boneheads! :laff:
 

Stone Cold

Well-Known Member
So today I heard Salt Lake Approach issue "left 360s" to an IFR aircraft today for metering into SLC.

I have never heard of this, and am very confused as to why they would not just issue a hold.

Thoughts?
The best one I got was coming out of TEB one day. Severe clear, and no weather between us and FL. Fltplan.com had given us what to expect, and we filed the preferred route. Well, we check onto center and a little later the controller comes back:

Center: Lear123, yeah, just go ahead and start a left turn. I'll give you a clearance in a few minutes. Expect the full 360 while we figure out what to do with you. (of course, the full NY accent should be read into this one).

Us: Roger, starting left turn and awaiting full route clearance.

The clearance they gave us wasn't too much strayed from where we had originally filed, but it was interesting, to say the least to receive that for our "clearance".

And, it was ver reassuring to be on an RJ flight recently going into Chicago to swap crews, Cappie and I are a few rows away from each other, and they get a "spin". We both look at each other, and say well at least the airlines get the same crap!!!
 

CLEVERK1

Well-Known Member
They have 888 numbers for that?
I never knew they had tollfree numbers for that. What a service nowerdays.

I was asked to call the tower after landing once (not because of a deviation or something in this direction)...but they didn´t had free numbers :)
 

little_cricket

Well-Known Member
So today I heard Salt Lake Approach issue "left 360s" to an IFR aircraft today for metering into SLC.

I have never heard of this, and am very confused as to why they would not just issue a hold.

Thoughts?
Back in the day, it used to happen to me every other month...

SLC controllers are a little lacking in high traffic abilities at least compared to Socal and Chicago.
 

KLB

Well-Known Member
I've done quite a few 360's in my day. OAK seems to do them all the time. I was riding into SFO with Southwest and we did multiple 360's. It was very entertaining watching the passengers' reactions.:)
 

phoenix 23684

Well-Known Member
If there is something that I have learned flying 121 into B airspace, at least here in TX, is that the controllers know better than to give complicated holds/instructions. The acronym KISS comes to mind. It's amazing since we we all learned how to do all the crazy stuff and now, all I get is fly present heading to fix, 10 dme legs.
Therefore in that same tone, the controller probably knows it's far easier for us to do a 360, than a hold.
 

JayAre

Well-Known Member
So today I heard Salt Lake Approach issue "left 360s" to an IFR aircraft today for metering into SLC.

I have never heard of this, and am very confused as to why they would not just issue a hold.

Thoughts?
They do this all the time to us at least the box haulers. IMO its just a quick way to get spacing with out all the technical BS of giving out holding instructions to IFR. Now if it was low IMC and a runway shut down you would have been given a what I call a hold from hell 30-45min. Granted its kinda quirky but the controllers in Salt Lake do a good job. One day I was coming in VFR I was given hold instructions with a expect landing clearance in 5 min. Yeah WTF is that pretty much turns around the captial at 6000 feet monitor tower for further instructions.
 
So today I heard Salt Lake Approach issue "left 360s" to an IFR aircraft today for metering into SLC.

I have never heard of this, and am very confused as to why they would not just issue a hold.

Thoughts?
Let me explain...

In ARTCC's around the nation we are using a new tool called TMA (Traffic Management Advisor). During high traffic periods select high volume airports begin using TMA. Basically every aircraft is tracked by a computer that meters it's time to a metered fix that feeds a TRACON... not to exceed that fixes acceptance rate. On the radar screen a number appears in the 4th line of our data block, a (+) number means the aircraft is early and needs to lose time or be delayed to the metred fix. A (-) number means the aircraft is late and needs to gain time to the metered fix.

Each sector has a (+) rating... say sector 1 is a +3 sector, that means that sector can only lose 3 minutes. Those numbers are based on sector complexity, flow, etc.

What you heard was most likely an aircraft that needed to lose time, the A/C was early to the metered fix. A hold won't accomplish doing this... as we vector or slow an A/C you can see the number drop towards 0, or whatever number we're shooting for. By spinning somone the controller has more control over exactly how much time is lost.

Does all this make sense ? If not let me know... I'll try and explain further. When I went to class for it it sounded complex but when we ran it in the lab and actually saw it in action it made sense. Most places it's only being done for a few hours as a test right now, I think this Fall it will be rolled out.
 

Number1atNumber2

Tries to keep it fun.
Let me explain...

In ARTCC's around the nation we are using a new tool called TMA (Traffic Management Advisor). During high traffic periods select high volume airports begin using TMA. Basically every aircraft is tracked by a computer that meters it's time to a metered fix that feeds a TRACON... not to exceed that fixes acceptance rate. On the radar screen a number appears in the 4th line of our data block, a (+) number means the aircraft is early and needs to lose time or be delayed to the metred fix. A (-) number means the aircraft is late and needs to gain time to the metered fix.

Each sector has a (+) rating... say sector 1 is a +3 sector, that means that sector can only lose 3 minutes. Those numbers are based on sector complexity, flow, etc.


What you heard was most likely an aircraft that needed to lose time, the A/C was early to the metered fix. A hold won't accomplish doing this... as we vector or slow an A/C you can see the number drop towards 0, or whatever number we're shooting for. By spinning somone the controller has more control over exactly how much time is lost.

Does all this make sense ? If not let me know... I'll try and explain further. When I went to class for it it sounded complex but when we ran it in the lab and actually saw it in action it made sense. Most places it's only being done for a few hours as a test right now, I think this Fall it will be rolled out.
Interesting. Is this system in place at most airports right now, or just the ones that are more highly congested?
 
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