Landing Clearance Canceled

BobDDuck

Island Bus Driver
Last night coming into DAY from the east, they were landing 6L and 36 (6R-24L was closed) and with the winds being calm we put in a request for 24R if there wasn't any other traffic. Dayton being the cool people they are approved it and about 15 miles out cleared us for the visual approach for 24R. We were then handed off to tower who cleared us to land.

On about an 8 mile final at CHQ ERJ qued up at the end of 6L saying they were ready to go. Tower told them to expedite they take off and cleared them to go with a turn out to the north. This whole time I was slightly south of the final for 24R and angling northwest to join on about a 260 heading. Tower then turned me to a 240 heading and canceled my landing clearance. However, he didn't cancel my approach clearance.

So, my question is, on that assigned 240 heading, can I still descend? I'm assuming he was planning on my to continue to the runway visually, but maintain the 240 heading (which was paralleling the final) until CHQ headed north and got out of the way.
 

whysoserial

New Member
I'm not savvy on DAY but I don't see why you couldn't descend if you had no restrictions other than a canceled landing clearance.
 

LawnGnome

Well-Known Member
yeah, he cleared you for a visual so come on in...I'm not really sure why he canceled your landing clearance either...he might have been thinking he was going to vector you back around the traffic, but then saw it would work...who knows...
 

Clocks

Well-Known Member
I've never had that happen, but my mad monday morning quarterbacking skills tell me I would have asked for clarification on the altitude, especially at night. In my mind if ATC is going to send me shooting off into space on an assigned heading ~2400' above the ground, I'm going to want an altitude from them too (ya I know you were paralleling final). I'm sure there is a whole book about terrain and obstacle clearance limits at various distances from the airport and various deviations from runway centerline, but I don't know them, and I'd guess the MSA around DAY is close to or above 2400'.
 

BobDDuck

Island Bus Driver
He vectored us to a 240 heading because otherwise we would be pretty much head on with the opposite direction departure, even though they were supposed to be turning north.

My question was more along the lines of, can you have a visual approach clearance with a heading restriction? It's sort of like a half clearance.

I understood what he was doing, and it was no where near a big deal, I'm just wondering from a technical (legal) point of view how that works.

Edit: terrain wasn't an issue as we were only about 8 miles from the airport and still between the two runway finals.
 

whysoserial

New Member
He vectored us to a 240 heading because otherwise we would be pretty much head on with the opposite direction departure, even though they were supposed to be turning north.

My question was more along the lines of, can you have a visual approach clearance with a heading restriction? It's sort of like a half clearance.

I understood what he was doing, and it was no where near a big deal, I'm just wondering from a technical (legal) point of view how that works.

Edit: terrain wasn't an issue as we were only about 8 miles from the airport and still between the two runway finals.
Anythings possible. At our place...we clear aircraft for visual approaches with altitude restrictions (at or above a certain altitude as all VFR departures get at or below an altitude which is 500 feet below the arrivals so they separate themselves)...then they go to the tower. We clear them to land and most will come back and ask if they can descend. Think about it.

Just like special vfr departures here. They get runway heading. As a pilot, that makes zero sense. Whatever.
 

LawnGnome

Well-Known Member
I would say the controller screwed up...I would have just asked if you had the other aircraft insight or the other aircraft had you insight...or the control tower could have provided visual separation b/w the both of you....

Here are our requirements:

7-4-1. VISUAL APPROACH
A visual approach is an ATC authorization for an aircraft on an IFR flight plan to proceed visually to the airport of intended landing; it is not an instrument approach procedure. Also, there is no missed approach segment. An aircraft unable to complete a visual approach shall be handled as any go-around and appropriate separation must be provided.
[SIZE=-2]REFERENCE-
FAAO JO 7110.65, Para 2-1-20, Wake Turbulence Cautionary Advisories.
FAAO JO 7110.65, Para 3-10-2, Forwarding Approach Information by Nonapproach Control Facilities.
FAAO JO 7110.65, Para 7-2-1, Visual Separation.
FAAO JO 7110.65, Para 7-4-4, Approaches to Multiple Runways.[/SIZE]
7-4-2. VECTORS FOR VISUAL APPROACH
A vector for a visual approach may be initiated if the reported ceiling at the airport of intended landing is at least 500 feet above the MVA/MIA and the visibility is 3 miles or greater. At airports without weather reporting service there must be reasonable assurance (e.g. area weather reports, PIREPs, etc.) that descent and flight to the airport can be made visually, and the pilot must be informed that weather information is not available.
PHRASEOLOGY-
(Ident) FLY HEADING OR TURN RIGHT/LEFT HEADING (degrees) VECTOR FOR VISUAL APPROACH TO (airport name).

(If appropriate)

WEATHER NOT AVAILABLE.
NOTE-
At airports where weather information is not available, a pilot request for a visual approach indicates that descent and flight to the airport can be made visually and clear of clouds.
[SIZE=-2]REFERENCE-
FAAO JO 7110.65, Para 5-9-1, Vectors to Final Approach Course.
FAAO JO 7110.65, Para 7-2-1, Visual Separation.
FAAO JO 7110.65, Para 7-4-3, Clearance for Visual Approach.
FAAO JO 7110.65, Para 7-4-4, Approaches to Multiple Runways.
FAAO JO 7110.65, Para 7-6-7, Sequencing.
FAAO JO 7110.65, Para 7-7-3, Separation.[/SIZE]
7-4-3. CLEARANCE FOR VISUAL APPROACH
ARTCCs and approach controls may clear aircraft for visual approaches using the following procedures:
NOTE-
Towers may exercise this authority when authorized by a LOA with the facility that provides the IFR service, or by a facility directive at collocated facilities.
a. Controllers may initiate, or pilots may request, a visual approach even when an aircraft is being vectored for an instrument approach and the pilot subsequently reports:
1. The airport or the runway in sight at airports with operating control towers.
2. The airport in sight at airports without a control tower.
b. Resolve potential conflicts with all other aircraft, advise an overtaking aircraft of the distance to the preceding aircraft and speed difference, and ensure that weather conditions at the airport are VFR or that the pilot has been informed that weather is not available for the destination airport. Upon pilot request, advise the pilot of the frequency to receive weather information where AWOS/ASOS is available.
PHRASEOLOGY-
(Ident) (instructions) CLEARED VISUAL APPROACH RUNWAY (number);

or

(ident) (instructions) CLEARED VISUAL APPROACH TO (airport name)

(and if appropriate)

WEATHER NOT AVAILABLE OR VERIFY THAT YOU HAVE THE (airport) WEATHER.
[SIZE=-2]REFERENCE-
FAAO JO 7110.65, Para 7-2-1, Visual Separation.[/SIZE]
c. Clear an aircraft for a visual approach when:
1. The aircraft is number one in the approach sequence, or
2. The aircraft is to follow a preceding aircraft and the pilot reports the preceding aircraft in sight and is instructed to follow it, or
NOTE-
The pilot need not report the airport/runway in sight.
3. The pilot reports the airport or runway in sight but not the preceding aircraft. Radar separation must be maintained until visual separation is provided.
d. All aircraft following a heavy jet/B757 must be informed of the airplane manufacturer and model.
EXAMPLE-
"Cessna Three Four Juliet, following a Boeing 757, 12 o'clock, six miles."
e. Inform the tower of the aircraft's position prior to communications transfer at controlled airports. ARTS/STARS functions may be used provided a facility directive or LOA specifies control and communication transfer points.
f. In addition to the requirements of para 7-4-2, Vectors for Visual Approach, and subparas a, b, c, d, and e, ensure that the location of the destination airport is provided when the pilot is asked to report the destination airport in sight.
g. In those instances where airports are located in close proximity, also provide the location of the airport that may cause the confusion.
EXAMPLE-
"Cessna Five Six November, Cleveland Burke Lakefront Airport is at 12 o'clock, 5 miles. Cleveland Hopkins Airport is at 1 o'clock 12 miles. Report Cleveland Hopkins in sight."
 

HiDef

New Member
I would say the controller screwed up...I would have just asked if you had the other aircraft insight or the other aircraft had you insight...or the control tower could have provided visual separation b/w the both of you....

And shouldn't it be "approach clearance canceled", not landing clearance canceled? Landing clearance canceled isn't even in the bookas far as I know. "Cancel takeoff clearance" is but the way I always thought you took back a landing clearance was with "go around".

HD
 

Towerboss

New Member
HiDef,

You are correct landing clearance canceled isn't in the books but you use it. When you previously cleared a guy to land and now you need to cancel it because you need to TIPH. <-- stupid rules I know.
 

taildragger173

Well-Known Member
Controllers are supposed to cancel your landing clearance if there is traffic holding in position on the runway or using the active runway for departures. This is so you wont land ontop of somebody. In my experience they've said "landing clearance canceled, expect clearance on short final."
 

LawnGnome

Well-Known Member
That is however unless they are using ASDE-X with safety logic in full core alert...then we can clear people to land all day long..typical phraseology:

"SWA1172, Rwy12R cleared to land, traffic in position."

But....I believe only 4 or 5 airports in the country can do this. I think HOU, ATL, PHL, and a couple others.
 

whysoserial

New Member
That is however unless they are using ASDE-X with safety logic in full core alert...then we can clear people to land all day long..typical phraseology:

"SWA1172, Rwy12R cleared to land, traffic in position."

But....I believe only 4 or 5 airports in the country can do this. I think HOU, ATL, PHL, and a couple others.
We don't even have position and hold :(
 

LawnGnome

Well-Known Member
that stinks...we used to be able to position and hold simultaneously on intersecting runways, but then two SWA jets were in position and one was cleared for takeoff and they both rolled, the controller caught it and fixed it, but now because of those pilots we can only position and hold simultaneously when the runways do not intersect. boo.
 

Towerboss

New Member
Ha we pos and hold on intersecting runways now. We even do the scary JFK Departure and Arrival situation. Fun Fun Fun.
 

Baronpilot244

Killick Stoker
Happened to me a while back on an ILS to 2C in BNA. I was IMC and just after catching the slope the tower cancels my landing clearance but says continue - traffic departing prior to your arrival.
It caught me a little off guard, however I continued to fly the ILS and briefed the missed one more time in case the guy in front didn't get off.
Broke out at 400' and the runway was clear and then got a clearance to land. So I guess they were using that procedure as they wanted to get some big iron out ahead of us and presumably couldn't have an aircraft depart a runway when another is cleared to land.

Had I been given a vector off the ILS and given we were in IMC I believe we would have had to break off the approach and would probably have been given instructions to climb as there was no way I could maintain terrain clearance visually????

BP244
 

LawnGnome

Well-Known Member
That's odd...if you were IMC you should have received your landing clearance no later than a two mile final....must have been the controllers mistake...even if the controller could not clear you to land while another a/c was in position....in IMC conditions...a tower controller has to separate and IFR departure from and IFR arrival by ensuring that the IFR departure begins his takeoff roll before the IFR arrival to that runway reaches a point no closer than 2 miles. We have to have 2 miles increasing to 3 miles within 1 minute after departure.

So...the tower controller should have cleared the a/c on the runway for takeoff at minimum while you were on a 2.5 mile final to give the a/c on the runway adequate time to begin his takeoff roll so he could have the required separation...and as soon as the tower controller cleared the a/c for takeoff on the runway, the next transmission would be to clear you to land.

We can bend this 2 mile increasing to 3 mile rule in IFR weather when we have visual on the arriving a/c...but if you didn't break out until 400 ft, there is no way we would have had visual....

seems like there were a few discrepencies with the tower guy...but who knows.
 

Towerboss

New Member
A landing clearance doesn't have to be canceled just for a departure ahead of you. It is only if the controller has someone hold on the runway.
 

LawnGnome

Well-Known Member
You are correct sir...unless you work at a cool airport like mine where you can clear people to land when one is in the hold....woohoo
 
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