LA Special Flight Rules Area

[Zero1Niner]

OK. Got a debate going on this subject. What is the designation of the airspace corridor for the Los Angeles Special Flight Rules Area to transit the LA class Bravo from the south to Santa Monica? Is it E or B, and what cloud clearances are required?

 

[Bernoulli Fan]

Call Pat Carey and ask him. He designed it.

 

[c172captain]

It is class E because you do not need a clearance to enter. The VFR mini route is class B. The VFR cloud minimums would fall under the Day/Night VFR minimums depending on the condition of the flight.

 

[Bernoulli Fan]

The VFR cloud minimums would fall under the Day/Night VFR minimums depending on the condition of the flight.

Are you suggesting that VFR weather minimums in class B or E airspace depend on whether it is day or night?

 

[c172captain]

"I'm pretty sure"(without looking it up because I simply can't get up from my comfortable seat) that the class E vfr weather minimums change between the day/night. Or maybe that's class G. I'm hopeless without the Good Book, the FAR/AIM.

:banghead:

 

[dpgtime]

OOOO Seanie Boy! Class E only goes to 5,1,1,1 after 10,000...no night/day changes...That my friend is G.

See you soon man!

 

[Zero1Niner]

Seems nuts to me that it would be 1 mile and clear of clouds within that tight a$$ corridor. Its GOT to be E cloud clearance requirements. Plus, your not talking to anyone(although you are self anouncing)...seems less and less like B to me.

 

[Bernoulli Fan]

Seems nuts to me that it would be 1 mile and clear of clouds within that tight a$$ corridor...seems less and less like B to me.

Class B airspace requires 3 sm visibility for VFR ops. You guys have read the FAR, right? :bandit:

 

[Bernoulli Fan]

"I'm pretty sure"(without looking it up because I simply can't get up from my comfortable seat)...

Here's a good link to peruse while seated. http://www.faa.gov/regulations_policies/faa_regulations/

 

[mshunter]

Here's a good link to peruse while seated. http://www.faa.gov/regulations_policies/faa_regulations/

Read what it says about this on the TAC. It is B. It says you must be VFR to use it. You can not have 2 airspaces in the same spot. And this area is B from SFC/100. As a refrence look over to KVNY. Notice that VNY is [-30] and BUR is [30/48]. So VNY is below 3000 (2999) and BUR is 3000/4800. No need to ask Pat, just look for yourself.

As for the 3SM and COC, if you can't maintain the 132 radial off of SMO while remaining COC, the you can't do it in VFR. BTW, I have sent CFI canidates to Pat for checkrides, and he will tell you this almost exactly verbatum. The reason this corridor was created was to free up radio traffic. It gets realy busy out here in LA, as many of you well know. Somedays when the marine layer is thick, you can't get a word in with SoCal. Everyone wants to go and fly, so they get an IFR climb to VFR on top and cancel. I used to get the "SADDE" climb out of SMO all the time to go and teach over Simi. I think I could probably still tell the guys in the tower to just give me the squak code and read back the clearance w/out hearing it, and get it right. In June, you can almost get all of the "ref to insts." done with a student if they fly twice a week in a SADDE climb.

 

[Bernoulli Fan]

Although his analogy to the class C overlying KVNY is irrelevant, mshunter is correct; LASFR is class B airspace. (Check out 14 CFR 93.93)

Thank you also, mshunter, for your interesting story about instructing in SoCal.

 

[mshunter]

Although his analogy to the class C overlying KVNY is irrelevant, mshunter is correct; LASFR is class B airspace. (Check out 14 CFR 93.93)

Thank you also, mshunter, for your interesting story about instructing in SoCal.

Not sure of the irrevelance? It was to point out that you can not have two airspaces in the same place, and was to prove that point. hence, class "E" or "G" in the middle of "B." Or "D" of VNY @ 3000 and "C" of BUR at also @ 3000. Bothe airspaces would be at 3000, causing conflict. If you couuld shed some more light on the irrevelance? I'm not trying to be rude, I'm just trying to learn.

 

[Bernoulli Fan]

What class airspace would you say you are in just north of KASH at 2600 MSL?

Second, what about federal airways that penetrate class B or C airspace? Victor airways are class E by definition, so what type of airspace are you in in that case?

...I don't know the answer either, but I suspect in the first case Nashua has an LOA with Boston approach.

 

[c172captain]

Looking at that chart... this may be the stupidest thing that I have ever said but is it possible that there was a mis-print? Reallly, I see no lines of seperation that would allow the class D to go up to 2700 w/o interfering with the class C that starts at 2500. I'm confused man, being a pilot is ridiculous :banghead:

 

[mshunter]

Looking at that chart... this may be the stupidest thing that I have ever said but is it possible that there was a mis-print? Reallly, I see no lines of seperation that would allow the class D to go up to 2700 w/o interfering with the class C that starts at 2500. I'm confused man, being a pilot is ridiculous :banghead:

I would have to agree. I would definatly like to see the FAA's explaination of this. I can't see how a mistake as big as this would be out there. Everything I was tought throughout my training, and what I now teach, says that there is no way two airspaces can exist in two places at the same time. But as Bernoulli Fan has clearly shown us, ASH and MHT both control the same airspace. Imagine how hard this must bo to coridinate between the two towers.

As far as the Victor airways penetrating B, C or D, I'd have to see one with an MEA of lower than the top of someones airspace. Yes it's possible to be VFR, so no MEA applies, but you would still need a transition through "XXX" airspace when controled. I don't think LAX would allow you to transit through their airspace very eaisly even if on a victor airway. And I don't remember reading anywhere where it says that an airway is is always, or has to be E. As far as the PHAK ch. 14 goes (8083-25A), if it's not already something else, THEN, it's E "Class E airspace extends upward from either the surface or a designated altitude to the [FONT=Helvetica,Helvetica][FONT=Helvetica,Helvetica]14-3 [/FONT][/FONT]overlying or adjacent controlled airspace." So if it's designated B,C,or D, then and only then, is it E. This may sound like gibberish, it's late, and I just finished a night flight, so I am tired. I'll look at again tomorow and see if it makes any sense:crazy:.

 

[Bernoulli Fan]

ASH and MHT both control the same airspace. Imagine how hard this must bo to coridinate between the two towers.

In practice, Nashua tower instructs pilots to remain at or below 2500, and Boston approach instructs them to remain at or above 2500. Manchester tower wisely stays out of it (outer ring...). Again, I believe they have an LOA.

And I don't remember reading anywhere where it says that an airway is is always, or has to be E.

AIM 3-2-6 (e) (5): The Federal airways are Class E airspace areas and, unless otherwise specified, extend upward from 1,200 feet to, but not including, 18,000 feet MSL.

I guess the depiction of class B, C, or D airspace could be construed to be "otherwise depicted" (the airway would then begin above the other airspace), but I have not been able to find anything specifying that.