King Air 350 Crash at Addison

BEEF SUPREME

Well-Known Member
It’s not hard. It’s just more things on your to do list. When the flying part of the job starts getting difficult, all that other stuff just adds to the stress. Some can handle it, some can’t.
Some respond to the stress by yelling at the CSRs, linemen and their own crew. Or making their copilot do all the cleaning. I've told my horror stories and they are relevant to this discussion but I'll be called names or that I have a poor work ethic, or that "my cousins best friend's uncle who met someone at a bar worked with BEEF SUPREME and that guy is a terrible pilot with a bad attitude."

Thankfully we don't need to go there.

My point was that all of these things add up to task saturation and stress. At the end of the day those spoiled, lazy 121 pilots who are fat dumb and happy are more likely to catch a mistake than the guy who is worried about the soda can expiration date or if he ordered gas early enough or whatever stupid issue took bandwidth away from safety.

But yeah waiting on the rampers that lost a bag and redo the bag count while you clock 30 minutes late can be excruciatingly painful for someone that as a captain did everything. I have to push the little voice that is like "I'll just do it myself." I'm getting paid. I'm safe. It sucks for the passengers but we aren't going to forget something important.
 

averettpilot

Well-Known Member
Some respond to the stress by yelling at the CSRs, linemen and their own crew. Or making their copilot do all the cleaning. I've told my horror stories and they are relevant to this discussion but I'll be called names or that I have a poor work ethic, or that "my cousins best friend's uncle who met someone at a bar worked with BEEF SUPREME and that guy is a terrible pilot with a bad attitude."

Thankfully we don't need to go there.

My point was that all of these things add up to task saturation and stress. At the end of the day those spoiled, lazy 121 pilots who are fat dumb and happy are more likely to catch a mistake than the guy who is worried about the soda can expiration date or if he ordered gas early enough or whatever stupid issue took bandwidth away from safety.

But yeah waiting on the rampers that lost a bag and redo the bag count while you clock 30 minutes late can be excruciatingly painful for someone that as a captain did everything. I have to push the little voice that is like "I'll just do it myself." I'm getting paid. I'm safe. It sucks for the passengers but we aren't going to forget something important.
I absolutely agree with everything you said. Wasn’t trying to say corporate/charter pilots are better or anything. Just that there’s a lot more to do. Some wig out easier than others.
 

KLB

Well-Known Member
I absolutely agree with everything you said. Wasn’t trying to say corporate/charter pilots are better or anything. Just that there’s a lot more to do. Some wig out easier than others.
My job can be pretty demanding at times. But planning ahead and knowing that there is only so much that me and the crew can do keeps me level headed. I don't get the "yelling at everyone around you" when it all turns to crap. It does not "uncrap" the crap show. All you can really do is take a few deep breathe, start sorting things out one at a time, and delegate delegate delegate.
 

BEEF SUPREME

Well-Known Member
I absolutely agree with everything you said. Wasn’t trying to say corporate/charter pilots are better or anything. Just that there’s a lot more to do. Some wig out easier than others.
Honestly I think 91/135 pilots in general are extremely good at multi tasking and keeping track of dozens of mundane details all at the same time. "Oh Mr. Big doesn't like Coke he only wants Pepsi on the airplane".

I don't think one subset of pilot is better than the other. They are just pilots. All of them have a spectrum from super good to really awful. I don't really want to start that debate nor do I intend to. I just personally feel that 121 operations allow for safer operations. One of the many reasons why is that the pilots are not continually task saturated.
 

JordanD

Honorary Member
I get the sleep schedule thing, but I never understand when people say stress. That is the most stress free job imaginable. There aren’t many gigs nowadays where you get to set the brake and completely forget about work for days at a time. Most jobs in today’s world have you tethered to phone and email around the clock.
Probably just down to the individual personality. Being on reserve doesn't help (even though it's MILES better at my current shop than my last one). Just that anxiety of EXPECTING the phone to go off (especially at 3am) or that "oh crap!" moment when you realized you left your phone in the other room for longer than 10 minutes. I was troubleshooting my phone once and turned it on airplane mode and forgot, had it off for half of a RAP once by accident. Broke into a cold sweat when I realized that could have potentially cost me my job or at least gotten me a carpet dance over something pretty trivial if I'd missed an assignment. Summer trying to not fly into a vicious thunderstorm and the "good" deviation direction is military airspace, and no, you CANNOT deviate right. Controller says tough crap. Obviously safety of flight trumps all but if you break a rule due to safety of flight you're probably still going to have a pretty stressful time defending yourself afterward. Deicing and you're number "a lot" in ORD/LGA trying to see a "representative surface" well enough to tell if ice is sticking to the wings again and watching the clock on the holdover time with a new guy who's barely hanging on by the tail in the other seat. Recurrent with someone who obviously didn't study and is now eating into your time which is a potential fail on YOUR record if you run out of time in the sim because they couldn't be bothered. Passenger issues, etc. It got better for me with experience but I don't see how anyone could ever say it's NEVER stressful. Maybe eventually you've seen everything and it's not as bad but there's days where I think my blood pressure would be lower in an office where a screw up isn't going to have me trying to defend my career. But to agree with you, the good days (which outnumber the bad) are amazing and pretty easy and I hardly ever am thinking about work after I get to the employee lot and get in my car.
 

SlumTodd_Millionaire

Evil Landlord Capitalist
Probably just down to the individual personality. Being on reserve doesn't help (even though it's MILES better at my current shop than my last one). Just that anxiety of EXPECTING the phone to go off (especially at 3am) or that "oh crap!" moment when you realized you left your phone in the other room for longer than 10 minutes. I was troubleshooting my phone once and turned it on airplane mode and forgot, had it off for half of a RAP once by accident. Broke into a cold sweat when I realized that could have potentially cost me my job or at least gotten me a carpet dance over something pretty trivial if I'd missed an assignment. Summer trying to not fly into a vicious thunderstorm and the "good" deviation direction is military airspace, and no, you CANNOT deviate right. Controller says tough crap. Obviously safety of flight trumps all but if you break a rule due to safety of flight you're probably still going to have a pretty stressful time defending yourself afterward. Deicing and you're number "a lot" in ORD/LGA trying to see a "representative surface" well enough to tell if ice is sticking to the wings again and watching the clock on the holdover time with a new guy who's barely hanging on by the tail in the other seat. Recurrent with someone who obviously didn't study and is now eating into your time which is a potential fail on YOUR record if you run out of time in the sim because they couldn't be bothered. Passenger issues, etc. It got better for me with experience but I don't see how anyone could ever say it's NEVER stressful. Maybe eventually you've seen everything and it's not as bad but there's days where I think my blood pressure would be lower in an office where a screw up isn't going to have me trying to defend my career. But to agree with you, the good days (which outnumber the bad) are amazing and pretty easy and I hardly ever am thinking about work after I get to the employee lot and get in my car.
I guess I’m just fortunate than I’ve never had anxiety about any of that stuff. Now, sitting in recurrent ground and the instructor says “let’s all go around the room and introduce ourselves and say a little about ourselves,” THAT gave me anxiety.:)
 

Zapphod Beblebrox

Well-Known Member
Some respond to the stress by yelling at the CSRs, linemen and their own crew. Or making their copilot do all the cleaning. I've told my horror stories and they are relevant to this discussion but I'll be called names or that I have a poor work ethic, or that "my cousins best friend's uncle who met someone at a bar worked with BEEF SUPREME and that guy is a terrible pilot with a bad attitude."

Thankfully we don't need to go there.

My point was that all of these things add up to task saturation and stress. At the end of the day those spoiled, lazy 121 pilots who are fat dumb and happy are more likely to catch a mistake than the guy who is worried about the soda can expiration date or if he ordered gas early enough or whatever stupid issue took bandwidth away from safety.

But yeah waiting on the rampers that lost a bag and redo the bag count while you clock 30 minutes late can be excruciatingly painful for someone that as a captain did everything. I have to push the little voice that is like "I'll just do it myself." I'm getting paid. I'm safe. It sucks for the passengers but we aren't going to forget something important.
I second this post. I was part 91 prior to part 121 and the old captains told me to settle down it wasn't my job to do everything else. I was hard at first but it quickly became clear and easy to see the wisdom of it. The flight crew's job was the safe operation of the aircraft -period!. Use part 135 and part 91 are different in that regard but after a 32 year stint in 121 I had a good feeling for when things were getting out of control.

I can happen very easily and things will get missed. One very simple measure of stress on the flight deck is Tasks divided by time. The more tasks and the less time the more stress. They went over and over that in sim briefings and at first I just said "Yea Yea, ok." That was when we first went to AQP. Designed into that sim session were multiple tasks and some abnormals. The pilot not flying would become saturated in about 3 minutes and the total crew performance would just go off the rails. Now throw in something else and things would get really bad.

Part 91 and 121 will probably never attain the safety record of 121 because in part 121 they take so much extra stuff out of the cockpit and you just concentrate on what you are supposed to do. The records are full of pilot errors even without adding more stuff.
 

Autothrust Blue

Very querulous
I guess I’m just fortunate than I’ve never had anxiety about any of that stuff. Now, sitting in recurrent ground and the instructor says “let’s all go around the room and introduce ourselves and say a little about ourselves,” THAT gave me anxiety.:)
Lucky you.

But to agree with you, the good days (which outnumber the bad) are amazing and pretty easy and I hardly ever am thinking about work after I get to the employee lot and get in my car.
No exaggeration, my worst day here at NedAir was still far less stressful than the average day in the service of the Mormons.
 

Autothrust Blue

Very querulous
There’s a reason one of our crusty old lear captains has his Rule #1: pace yourself.
As someone who does like to crack along and get things done quickly, I have to constantly remind myself that it's much more important (and universally faster) to get something done correctly the first time, rather than screwing it up.
 

guywhoflies

Y'NO WUT IM SAYIN
I guess I’m just fortunate than I’ve never had anxiety about any of that stuff. Now, sitting in recurrent ground and the instructor says “let’s all go around the room and introduce ourselves and say a little about ourselves,” THAT gave me anxiety.:)
When I'm teaching and ask people to introduce themselves, it never fails that one idiot will bore us for 15 minutes going through their entire flying career (including training). I call that person "Chunk" for the remainder of class. #gooniesneversaydie
 

stroboli62

Well-Known Member
Don’t forget “we want spot 1 too, this is a REALLY important client“

Yeah...I remember this in KMSP on the ramp in the 1980s when it was Burlington Northern Airmotive/ Van Dusen Airport Services/ Signature

EVVVVVVVVVVEEEERYbody was impotent!! For Spot #1 ( Catch what I did there?)
 
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