mtsu_av8er
Well-Known Member
Unsolved History on the Discovery Channel is discussing this tragedy....
KAL 007....
- Thread starter mtsu_av8er
- Start date
mtsu_av8er
Well-Known Member
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Yeah and right after they said "the INS systems uses radio beacons to navigate ..." I really stopped listening.
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Yeah, I almost spit my drink out when they said that.....
Yeah and right after they said "the INS systems uses radio beacons to navigate ..." I really stopped listening.
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Yeah, I almost spit my drink out when they said that.....
AngelFuree
Well-Known Member
Guys, what's INS?
I first looked on acronymfinder.com and it showed: Inertial Navigation System...
Is that what it is?
If so, I searched google, and am not sure what that is....
Care to explain?
edit: I was looking at this page, but it could help if explained further...
http://www.pakaviation.com/PVA/Library/Docs/inertial_navigation.html
I first looked on acronymfinder.com and it showed: Inertial Navigation System...
Is that what it is?
If so, I searched google, and am not sure what that is....
Care to explain?
edit: I was looking at this page, but it could help if explained further...
http://www.pakaviation.com/PVA/Library/Docs/inertial_navigation.html
Rodelu
Well-Known Member
It's a self-contained (does not use external radio/gps signals from stations on the ground nor space), used for navigation.
In very simple terms, it will give you lat/long info, based on the initial position input -and- the calculations that the unit makes with it's internal gyros/accelerometers(like that article says).
I'm sure somebody else can give you a better description, but I hope this basics help...
In very simple terms, it will give you lat/long info, based on the initial position input -and- the calculations that the unit makes with it's internal gyros/accelerometers(like that article says).
I'm sure somebody else can give you a better description, but I hope this basics help...
pilot602
If specified, this will replace the title that
That's about it. They usually reference some sort of outside source to correct errors (usually GPS) but in wartime the military versions are supposedly capable of running completely alone for x amount of time with very little deviation. And that's the idea.
flyover
New Member
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That's about it. They usually reference some sort of outside source to correct errors (usually GPS) but in wartime the military versions are supposedly capable of running completely alone for x amount of time with very little deviation. And that's the idea.
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You might be talking about the FMS which gets the inputs from INS, GPS, DME/DME, etc. It then makes corrections. (In fact if you have GPS I don't know why you'd be using INS). Could be a military thing.
But the INSes I'm familiar with just do their thing without outside input.
Dave
That's about it. They usually reference some sort of outside source to correct errors (usually GPS) but in wartime the military versions are supposedly capable of running completely alone for x amount of time with very little deviation. And that's the idea.
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You might be talking about the FMS which gets the inputs from INS, GPS, DME/DME, etc. It then makes corrections. (In fact if you have GPS I don't know why you'd be using INS). Could be a military thing.
But the INSes I'm familiar with just do their thing without outside input.
Dave
seagull
Well-Known Member
FMS can use many inputs. INS is still part of the mix -- in the big airplanes, at least. The newer ones are actually IRUs, using lazer ring gyro's, and provide inputs in lateral and vertical path. The VSI and Attitude indicator, as well as the compass indication, all come off IRU inputs. It also inputs into the FMS, with only GPS being given a higher priority, depending on the RAIM (which the system tracks), as well as the ANP/RNP. The compass variation is adjusted thru a database rather than flux valves. I can also get the IRS altitude indication out of our CFDS, although that is not typically displayed on the panel.
The IRS portion of the FMS is a very important part of the redundancy that you want. GPS coverage isn't perfect all over the world, and it's nice to be able to navigate accurately with just internal systems.
The IRS portion of the FMS is a very important part of the redundancy that you want. GPS coverage isn't perfect all over the world, and it's nice to be able to navigate accurately with just internal systems.
casey
Well-Known Member
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All correct. I was just trying to correct the idea that INS gets outside inputs and "corrects itself". That's counter to everything I know about INS.
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The INS needs to know its inital position, and occasionally it needs a santiy check. GPS works well for this, and the units i've worked with used GPS for the initial lat/lon, and then used that accelerometers and gyros to calculate position. Depending on the application (vibration, etc) and the quality of the acellerometers and gyros the INS position will drift from that actual position. GPS can be used to give the occasional position to the INS system to correct the drift error.
I've only personally worked with low end INS solutions (homebrew and commercial hardware) where this may have been more an issue than higher end equipment, but thats my experience on the matter. (building a single board computer + GPS + INS + wireless ethernet + servo controllers and a PCM reciever mounted on an R/C helicoptor so that it would fly itself around a course, for anyone interested)
All correct. I was just trying to correct the idea that INS gets outside inputs and "corrects itself". That's counter to everything I know about INS.
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The INS needs to know its inital position, and occasionally it needs a santiy check. GPS works well for this, and the units i've worked with used GPS for the initial lat/lon, and then used that accelerometers and gyros to calculate position. Depending on the application (vibration, etc) and the quality of the acellerometers and gyros the INS position will drift from that actual position. GPS can be used to give the occasional position to the INS system to correct the drift error.
I've only personally worked with low end INS solutions (homebrew and commercial hardware) where this may have been more an issue than higher end equipment, but thats my experience on the matter. (building a single board computer + GPS + INS + wireless ethernet + servo controllers and a PCM reciever mounted on an R/C helicoptor so that it would fly itself around a course, for anyone interested)
I was in the air when this happened onboard a EP-3 over the Sea of Japan off the coast of Validivostok (sp?). We received a message to RTB and RTB fast. When we found out what happened, all the crew was stunned. As far as there being survivors I seriously doubt that. Onboard a couple of the "search and resuce helicopters" I had a couple of friends whose profession weren't exactly in the rescue area. (side bar: one of those helicoptors with a buddy of mine onboard ended up ditching in the ocean, everyone was ok and were picked up by a US Frigate.) Because of this incident we couldn't fly missions for a couple of weeks. Also, when President Reagan confronted the USSR over this he released a lot of classified information which comprimised several surveilance methods that we used at the time.
(More side bar: Because of the Walker spy incident it seems that the Soviets had already comprimised our Top Secret communications systems and had been listening to classified information for years. Walker did alot of damage and should have been executed for treason.)
Onboard the old EP-3's we had two INS and an Omega system. The Nav would cross check all three systems and also take star or sun shots with the onboard sexton. With the INS, I would usually plug our parking coordinates on the ground so it would align and warm up before the Pilots and Nav came onboard.
(More side bar: Because of the Walker spy incident it seems that the Soviets had already comprimised our Top Secret communications systems and had been listening to classified information for years. Walker did alot of damage and should have been executed for treason.)
Onboard the old EP-3's we had two INS and an Omega system. The Nav would cross check all three systems and also take star or sun shots with the onboard sexton. With the INS, I would usually plug our parking coordinates on the ground so it would align and warm up before the Pilots and Nav came onboard.