Job advice

gomntwins

gomntwins

Well-Known Member
Granted, this is most likely a question I need to answer for myself-- but any advice ya'll can offer would help greatly.

My situation: I want a different job. I'm currently a CFI and have been for a year and a couple months. I like it a lot... but I'm getting burnt out. More than anything, I miss actually flying airplanes instead of jsut stepping in when things go horribly wrong. My hours are 1170tt with 190 multi. Also, I have a 4 year degree in poli sci.

Places I've applied: Horizon, ASA, expressjet, air whiskey, chautaqua, Mesaba, Skywest, Piedmont, and Island air (glad I didn't hear anything from them- moving to hawaii seems crazy). Haven't heard a thing from anybody. Many places just plain ol' stopped hiring shortly after I hit my 1000.

Other options: the dreaded mesa or ameriflight (not dreaded) seem like the best. I have great connections at both... which helps greatly. Mesa sucks but it's flying an airliner. Ameriflight's good but I'm unsure if that's what I truly want to do. I don't like Mesa, but my friends and my location are starting to pull me in. I like ameriflight... but, my ultimate goal is airliner (at the moment). At the same time, I've switched back and forth for years on wanting to do the amflight/airnet thing and flying for a regional. I like other places (listed above), but I haven't heard back.

My question: how do you figure out what to do? I don't think I can hold of flight instructing for the ideal job to come around. I'd rather get into something more career oriented. Only problem: I have not been able to figure out for sure what I want. How'd ya'll figure out that cargo was what you wanted or that regional is what you wanted? It's not like I'm all that low time of a pilot-- I always figured as I built up experience I'd have a clearer picture of what I want. Alas, I do not. Any input would be beneficial. Any advice appreciated. And, any other options that I have not come up with as far as regionals or cargo, please share.

Thanks.
 
This may sound kind of nutty, or maybe not. I used to work for Frontier Airlines, I started off as just a ramper but after 90 days you are eligible to apply for other positions within the company and they had alot of cool stuff. I moved up to the tower at DIA and worked in airport ops and got to be responisible for alot of important things at times. I learned a ton working weight and balance, and really learned how to talk on the radios and many other things. My point is, if you really want to work for one of those airlines, you could apply at whatever it is they are hiring for that you may find interesting and then move up within the company. After a while you will meet the right person in the company and as long as you stay current by maybe flying on your own or perhaps being a part-time CFI you can probably get that pilot job you want.

Hope that helps.
 
Timbuff10 said:
After a while you will meet the right person in the company and as long as you stay current by maybe flying on your own or perhaps being a part-time CFI you can probably get that pilot job you want.
Click to expand...

Be careful with this. If you're considering it, make sure you find out what the internal hiring policies are. At FedEx, you must meet the mins to apply for the pilot slot, however AirTran used to hire people with very low time (around 1000) into their ground schools, but I've been told by someone in the know (who was hired at 1200/200, all piston time) that they've put a stop to it.

CFI time probably won't help you at that point in your career at a larger 121 airline (a la Frontier, AirTran, etc. etc). I'm sure there are specific cases but you are also limiting yourself to that one airline.

I was undergoing this same dilemma a few months ago, I applied to about 15 different places, from freight to corporate to regional airlines. In the end, I decided to try to go to a 121 airline. I did this because when I started down this road I was shooting toward that end. I basically just wanted to see if I could do it :)! Also, people go to these other freight companies to gain experience and twin time to go to a regional - and I wanted to avoid another "baby step" up. Some of the freight guys go to stay, however, and build that turbine PIC before I will even be close to upgrading.

good luck
~wheelsup
 
Gomntwins,

You are at a very difficult stage in a professional pilot's career. I've been there as well as thousands of others. Your next step...and maybe your next two or three steps may not bring you the permanency you want in your job and career. However, you should view it as a continuing progression in your development as a professional.

Can you find part time work as a charter co-pilot while you instruct? Maybe move for a full time charter job? How about flying a Baron for a mom and pop outfit...you are getting very close to Part 135 PIC minimums.

If you have a good CFI gig and are able to log a steady diet of ME time...which it looks like you are....a very balanced number vs your total time...you may be in a good place where you are at.

I was a CFI for a little over 4 years. While it seemed like I would never get anywhere at the time...in hindsight, it really wasn't a very long stretch of time...compared to a potential 40 year career. Eventually opportunities will present themselves. Be patient but be diligent and exhaust all opportunities to move to a better job than you have now. When the opportunity presents itself...be ready to strike.

It's a tough tough transition from CFI to charter to airline/corporate. If you are driven to make it happen...eventually it will. Maybe not on the timeline you want, however.
 
"people go to these other freight companies to gain experience and twin time to go to a regional - and I wanted to avoid another "baby step" up. Some of the freight guys go to stay, however, and build that turbine PIC before I will even be close to upgrading"

Wheelsup,

I'm only speaking for myself here, and the few that I interact with, but I know my goal is not to build time and go to a regional. I know in the past that has been the normal path...CFI, cargo or charter, commuter, and then major, but that stopped when the "mega regionals" started requiring a wet COMM ticket. I know you were just making a point, but I went to freight to AVOID the regionals, build MY skills, and to have fun flying before I start pushing the A/P on. Most of my friends at Airnet have no desire to go to a regional either. Some ended up at regionals, but most are trying to avoid it.

Gomntwins,

How do you figure out what you'll like? You won't until you try it. The cargo side of the house can be fun, is excellent training for the future as far as building decision skills, Wx interpretation, Mx decisions, etc.

On the other hand, it's mostly at night, flipping sleep cycles, etc. Most of my flying is alone (gets old at times, especially in different cities alone for a week at a time). We have had a few people go to airlines in the last few weeks (Frontier, ATA, many regionals) so it's not the end of the world to start in cargo and decide it's not for you.

For me personally, it wasn't a hard decision. I knew I'd be happier doing something fun, experiencing life and learning more than I could ever imagine about flying by doing the night cargo thing. I also didn't want to be a gear puller for 1-10 years and not have anything to contribute to the cockpit (at 1170TT, I didn't feel, nor do I feel I now have enough knowledge to be carrying 50-70 people in back).

One more thing I considered, if something happens to the airline, how many people are in the same boat as me (1-3 years gear pulling, riding shotgun, whatever you want to call it) and have no leverage because I don't have any PIC time VS. 1 year + of SE Turbine, ME PIC, then some time in a Lear as gear puller with a much broader foundation, giving me more options. FOR ME, I felt I'd have a better shot with the cargo time under my belt and have more options in this lovely, psychotic world we lovingly refer to as aviation.

Good luck no matter what you decide.
 
Come on over to Airnet! Look man I had about 3 paragraphs written until I hit the wrong key and deleted it, and I am not in the mood to re-write it but the summary was................
I used to be the same way. I used to have the "regional" mentality that most everyone I know has. Quit basing decsions on what hours look good to regionals, or which one is cool at the moment, or where your friends go or all that other stuff. The regionals are probably cool for a while but you know what I realized, they are an entry level job just like airnet/ ameriflight., whomever. In my opinion its an ego thing, because all pilots have ego's. I have realized that paychecks and QOL are very important and what type of plane you fly is a distant second. Like all of us I wanted the uniform, to fly a cool jet as quick as possible, to feel equal to my friends, have hot chicks look at you during boarding while you flip switches and look cool, and all that other stuff. But I took the job at airnet and really have enjoyed it here. You know what I fly a Baron, so what. I used to think that was inferior, inferior to who, it was in my own mind, to an ERJ but then I realized what I already mentioned, screw that! Its not about what looks cool, thats just looks. I make more than your're first 2 years as a regional FO, FLYING A BARON! and as soon as I came to the realization that I will not go to the regionals I realized that I have a good job, Nothing that sounds good to the ego, but a good paycheck and working for a good company. I should be in the lear in hopefully 6 months, flying higher, faster than any regional, and I mean really flying. You will get to really fly an airplane at this job, fly the plane to the limits and have a blast doing it. And yes it is possible to go to the major's if that is your goal, we just had a couple captains go to jetblue, straight from freightdoggin' and another just interviewed with southwest. So don't listen to the crap people put on here about this just being a timebuilder job, its a job just like any other. Airnet is a real company, not some sketchy, scary, duct tape freight operation. We get paid vaction, they pay for your move (3 times if you stay), pay for your medical, jumpseat privilages with 121, and unifiorms, Show me a regional that does all that. Anyway obviously I am a little biased but I hope it helped atleast a little. I understand the crossroads you are at, just live in the here and now. People in this industry can miss several good years of their lives, and fun jobs because they jump on the yellow brick road with everyone else and take a number so you can maybe be capt for southwest in 8 yrs. I dont think most people think about what will happen when they actually get to the pot at the end of the rainbow, sitting there say "now what" and then realizing wow, I spent all these years getting here sacrificing my QOL. I finally said screw it, Take a good job that you enjoy NOW and let the future figure itself out.
Thats my 2 cents (alright maybe more like $20)
 
txpilot said:
I'm only speaking for myself here, and the few that I interact with, but I know my goal is not to build time and go to a regional. I know in the past that has been the normal path...CFI, cargo or charter, commuter, and then major, but that stopped when the "mega regionals" started requiring a wet COMM ticket. I know you were just making a point, but I went to freight to AVOID the regionals, build MY skills, and to have fun flying before I start pushing the A/P on. Most of my friends at Airnet have no desire to go to a regional either. Some ended up at regionals, but most are trying to avoid it.
Click to expand...

I guess my point was lost in that last sentence and I didn't do a good job of explaining it. Building TPIC is a good thing, and I was trying to imply that going to a freight gig you can build that time a lot quicker than pretty much any regional.

I was also explaining to him my thought process and why I did what I did, in my situation. I didn't mean to imply freight was a dead end job, because it most certainly is not. In fact, I see being at a regional as a dead end job...

txpilot said:
the last few weeks (Frontier, ATA, many regionals)
Click to expand...
Hmm, I thought ATA had people on furlough? Are they hiring again? Hey atleast there's some good news lol.

Also, I'm not really sure what would prevent us regional pukes from moving over to freight, either. I would think the hardest part would be convincing the interviewer that you actually intend to stay at the job. I plan on winning the lottery though, so I don't have to worry about all this "where will the industry be in XX years" crap :).

jsb172 said:
We get paid vaction, they pay for your move (3 times if you stay), pay for your medical, jumpseat privilages with 121, and unifiorms, Show me a regional that does all that
Click to expand...

We get paid for every displacement.
We get reimbursed for our medicals.
We have jumpseat priv's & CASS.
We get reimbursed for headsets and uniforms.

Just an FYI. I would think that most larger airlines (135 included) would have the same benefits, or similar.

~wheelsup
 
"My question: how do you figure out what to do?"

That's an easy one.

You've tried a few other places and not had any luck. You want to move on from CFIing at 1200/200. Sounds good. You have contacts at Mesa and Amflight and see them as about equal. Maybe not as good as the places that wouldn't interview you but a step up from where you are now.

My philosophy has always been to take the step up ASAP without regard to family or location. Perhaps that's why I'm single and once lived in Scottsbluff, Nebraska...

Anyhow, you should apply at both Mesa and Amflight and take whichever one first offers you a job.
 
txpilot said:
"people go to these other freight companies to gain experience and twin time to go to a regional - and I wanted to avoid another "baby step" up. Some of the freight guys go to stay, however, and build that turbine PIC before I will even be close to upgrading"

Wheelsup,

I'm only speaking for myself here, and the few that I interact with, but I know my goal is not to build time and go to a regional. I know in the past that has been the normal path...CFI, cargo or charter, commuter, and then major, but that stopped when the "mega regionals" started requiring a wet COMM ticket. I know you were just making a point, but I went to freight to AVOID the regionals, build MY skills, and to have fun flying before I start pushing the A/P on. Most of my friends at Airnet have no desire to go to a regional either. Some ended up at regionals, but most are trying to avoid it.

Gomntwins,

How do you figure out what you'll like? You won't until you try it. The cargo side of the house can be fun, is excellent training for the future as far as building decision skills, Wx interpretation, Mx decisions, etc.

On the other hand, it's mostly at night, flipping sleep cycles, etc. Most of my flying is alone (gets old at times, especially in different cities alone for a week at a time). We have had a few people go to airlines in the last few weeks (Frontier, ATA, many regionals) so it's not the end of the world to start in cargo and decide it's not for you.

For me personally, it wasn't a hard decision. I knew I'd be happier doing something fun, experiencing life and learning more than I could ever imagine about flying by doing the night cargo thing. I also didn't want to be a gear puller for 1-10 years and not have anything to contribute to the cockpit (at 1170TT, I didn't feel, nor do I feel I now have enough knowledge to be carrying 50-70 people in back).

One more thing I considered, if something happens to the airline, how many people are in the same boat as me (1-3 years gear pulling, riding shotgun, whatever you want to call it) and have no leverage because I don't have any PIC time VS. 1 year + of SE Turbine, ME PIC, then some time in a Lear as gear puller with a much broader foundation, giving me more options. FOR ME, I felt I'd have a better shot with the cargo time under my belt and have more options in this lovely, psychotic world we lovingly refer to as aviation.

Good luck no matter what you decide.
Click to expand...


I worked for USCheck...at the time...I think Airnet now...and I didn't really care for it too much. I left to go to a commuter and it was a much better job. Of course...different strokes for different folks.

The flying was great, the maintenance was solid, and the company is basically the Trump Holdings of the check hauling business...however, the schedule was brutal, the training was mostly threats and intimidation, and I only flew to like 4 different cities every single night...every night of the year. The biggest drawback I see, compared to a regional, is that the schedule is inflexible. Things may have changed...maybe it's a different company...this was back in '91 or so...but I was completing a master's degree and needed to defend my thesis on a friday morning. Six months in advance I asked to have the previous thursday night off so I could prepare for the event. Bottom line...no way to get it off. I flew all night...then defended the thesis all day...was up for over 30 hours when it was all said and done. The worst part of it was that I flew thru the company's main hub that thursday night and there were 4 floater pilots playing computer solitaire with no flying assignments.

After that...I sent out my resume and was gone in 3 weeks. I was a good employee too...never missed a night of work...always flew on time. I was disappointed they couldn't accomodate a simple request.
 
B767,

Sounds like the same company and sounds like you had a very bad experience here. From what I've seen, they are great with working with people on schedules and other things to help with QOL. There might be some stray instances of everything not working out like the pilot wanted, but those are usually isolated.

We are no longer owned by Jerry Mercer, as of now, traded publicly on the NYSE, and still awesome on the Mx issues. The company right now is trying to figure out which way it's going, so it'll be interesting to see if/when we do get bought out and where it goes from there.

As far as the schedule, I am a floater, so I see the worst of the schedule, having to flip back and forth with evening & night runs, even some day runs, depending on the run of course. It has taken some getting used to, but I am very happy with this stage in my career.

I have never had any dreams of this being the perfect job or retiring here. This is the time-building cargo job. I am enjoying myself, not held down to a set run or schedule for Airnet, and keeping my eyes and ears on the entire industry.

A long time ago, I had an internship with AA and had the VP of Flight Ops ready to get me a job with AA as soon as they started hiring again (1993-1994 time frame). Well, that used to be the dream. Now, I have no aspirations at all to work for AA, and at this point in time I don't want to work for ANY airline. I'll stay with the "limos" instread of the "busses" and take my chances with that side of the industry (corporate/fractional). I guess my point of all this is it depends on your perspective of this industry and where you are at that time. For me personally, this was the right thing to do.

Again, sorry they weren't more accomodating back then, but glad it all worked out for you. How'd the Masters Thesis go, by the way?

TX
 
Those USC pilots were probably the best group of pilots I've ever worked with. Demanding schedule, no autopilot, no flight director, no radar, crummy deice equipment...and you guys are doing it safely every night...and on time to boot. My hats off to you...outside of military combat...it's got to be about the toughest type of flying out there.

I liked that type of flying for about a year...then it really started to become a drag...I was flying 8 hard hours every night with a 14 hour duty day. I was working like a dog...and just couldn't catch up on my rest on the weekends. I was a zombie!! Like I stated previously...the inflexible schedule was the worst part of it. But it was a good multi engine, instrument job where I really learned how to fly.

As for the thesis...it passed. About the least amount of fun I've ever had. But pain is fleeting...it must be....thinking about adding the Phd.
 
B767,

Just to let you know, we have it much easier nowadays...most of our planes have autopilots, some have radar, and a lot of our a/c even have GPS in them. It's still demanding flying alone at night with the circadian rythms all messed up. As far as my schedule, I am a floater, so I work 8 on/6 off, which helps out tremendously on the sleep cycles. I don't know how the "lifers" there do it every day for 20+ years.

Glad to hear you're going psycho now and thinking of the PhD:) . What in, if you don't mind me asking? I'm eventually going for a Masters, just haven't figured out what in...don't want to be the dime-a-dozen MBA, considered Law school, but not sure if it's right for me, just looking at other options.
 
Glad to hear the schedules are much better. They used to be really, really long nights.

I'd probably enter an EdD program. I currently teach math and science part time at the local high school. I might be interested in ed. administration...with some research. When my flying career ends at 60, or earlier, I think I'd like to retire to a teaching position...community college, unversity, or maybe primary/secondary school admin.
 
If you want a job at Mesa, it's yours. Just make sure that you can demonstrate a heartbeat on the day of the interview.

Alas, you say you don't like Mesa. Can't blame you, as I've been here long enough and wouldn't recommend it. But, what's your ultimate goal? You can certainly go to Airnet or Ameriflight, spend 5-8 years (like you would at a regional), and hopefully find a nicer place to work by then. You could start trying to find a corporate gig for 5-8 years, then look to move up from there.
 
DE727UPS said:
"My question: how do you figure out what to do?"

That's an easy one.

You've tried a few other places and not had any luck. You want to move on from CFIing at 1200/200. Sounds good. You have contacts at Mesa and Amflight and see them as about equal. Maybe not as good as the places that wouldn't interview you but a step up from where you are now.

My philosophy has always been to take the step up ASAP without regard to family or location. Perhaps that's why I'm single and once lived in Scottsbluff, Nebraska...

Anyhow, you should apply at both Mesa and Amflight and take whichever one first offers you a job.
Click to expand...

Be careful with the "go anywhere you can" mentality. Sure Don had to spend some time in Scottsbluff, but with the state of the industry at that time (please correct me if I'm wrong), he knew he wouldn't be there too long. Many of us regional captains had the intentions of being at a major years ago. Now many of us at my stage (going on seven years at Skywest) are thinking of making this a career- thank God I'm at a good airline! I think it would be miserable to be stuck somewhere I didn't like for this long.
 
SkyWChris said:
thank God I'm at a good airline! I think it would be miserable to be stuck somewhere I didn't like for this long.
Click to expand...


Careful...that's bad karma in the 'biz. That's what I said about Delta when I was a new hire 7 years ago. :)
 
I've always been had the opinion that being agressive is best. A couple thousand hours PIC turbine and I'd be looking to get out of the regionals. Even in this day and age there are some lower tier airlines or charter outfits flying Boeings, third level freight outfits flying Boeings, or overseas contracts flying Boeings. A move to something like that would get you noticed faster at the few good jobs left and give you a leg up on the multitude of RJ guys should this business ever turn around.

If you are going to stay at a regional become a checkairman. You need to do something to set yourself apart and I've "heard" that UPS likes to see this.

Again. Either Mesa or Amflight beats sitting around waiting for the other one to call and beats what you are doing now.
 
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