It isnt PFT, it is PFUTT

Cosmo1999

Well-Known Member
I have noticed a few posts on the topic of PFT lately so I figured I would put in my two cents. I think that programs such as Gulfstream Intl should be called PFUTT ( Paying for Unearned Turbine Time). I think the term PFT(Pay for training) is incorrect because everyone pays for training some how. The difference is that once you get your commercial rating and your multi-engine time you shouldnt be paying for flight time anymore. If you have to pay a company at all to occupy a position that REQUIRES your presence to execute that flight then it should be PFUTT(paying for unearned turbine time). Everyone should have to pay their dues in this buisness to get to fly the big stuff. If people wouldnt pay for this unearned time then maybe starting pilot wages would be a little different. If pilots would just be patient then the companys would have to pay pilots descent starting wages instead of having to pay just to get a job. People who pay just to get a job such as gulfstream intl really undermine the buisness and should not be allowed to get jobs at other airlines when they are finished paying for their unearned time.
 

viper548

Well-Known Member
"Everyone should have to pay their dues in this buisness to get to fly the big stuff"

Exactly!!! It's while "paying your dues" that you gain all the valuable experience. Doctors don't go strait from med school to opening their own practice. They gain experience while "paying thier dues" as a resident. Laywers don't go strait from law school to being a partner in a firm. They have to pay thier dues too. Even car salesmen start at the lemon lot before they step into the Ferrari showroom. Paying your dues is part of life! It's where experience is earned.
 

Flugmaschine

New Member
Disclaimer: PFT bad. I'm going CFI. I'm making a broader point.

Point: This whole "paying your dues" thing is a red herring.

Who is to say when I have paid enough "dues"? Is there a committee somewhere?
There was a post here a while ago lamenting the loss of stature pilots have as a result of the public's being conditioned to feel that everyone should be equal in misery (and so pilots are paid too much). This is the very same thing. "Oh yeah?! Well, I schlepped rubber dog puke in IMC at night through ice both ways for 12 hour shifts for 15 years living on Ho-Ho's and Dr. Pepper before I got MY slot, so I paid my dues, and if you didn't do the same, you haven't paid yours". "Oh yeah, well I...." . You get the picture. This is the same wherever I go... "I suffered for 3 years on shiftwork..how did you get a day job after 6 months?!" I hear people point to the fact that "there are X number of 4000 hour pilots out on the street, and they should get a job before you do, thou 500 hour wonder." They miss the point that it's about more than numbers. Numbers say "experienced", not "deserving". They're out of work because of something they couldn't control for the most part (ie a furlough). They STAY out of work for many reasons, some legit (won't give up seniority for instance), but sometimes that reason is that they have a bad attitude. Or they interviewed badly, or they fail to NETWORK. I've lost jobs to guys to politick better, and I have to yield the field with grace. They did it better. Again, I am not disparaging anyone...I'm sure there are great guys out there who legitmately can't find work. I know most of this had nothing to do with PFT, but I think I've made my point, and I don't want to ramble. Just had to get that off my chest.

Have a good one, JC.
-John W.
 

DE727UPS

Well-Known Member
I like PFJ....I mean, I don't "like" PFJ....but I think it should be called PFJ for Pay For Job.

It got started being called PFT years ago during a down turn when Comair got the bright idea they could get new pilots to pay for their own initial training. It's was like 12K but if you could write the check and meet their flight time requirements, you could have the job. It caught on like wildfire and soon most of the regionals were doing it. Horizon never did but came up with training contract instead that survives to this day, I believe. The practice of PFT went away when the regionals experienced their boom in the 90's...perhaps it was pressure from the unions, I don't know.
 

Sprint100

Well-Known Member
What is all this crap about paying dues?
Just to be real, first off that whole thing about doctors going through med school and lawyers going through law school is utterly ridiculous. I've seen many friends go straight to big time in those professions and many others. That doesn't mean they didn't pay dues. Don't forget they gotta go through school first. If goin through school ain't enough due payin'.....
Secondly, there are tons of professions where you don't even have to go through the rigors of a four year......I'd like to bring to your attention TRADE SCHOOL.
Third, if schools like Gulfstream and all them others weren't looked down upon (I still don't know why, noone has given a clearcut reason as to why) we all know over half of ya'll would sign up tomorrow.
Paying dues, h*ll, if I went to Gulfstream I paid about $30,000 worth of dues plus the training.
Stop all the playa hatin' on people that choose to go that route, just do your thang and stop whinin' about PFT. Some of ya'll just sound mad at people that may get it easier.
 

Derg

New Arizona, Il Duce/Warlord
Staff member
Paying Dues is a euphemism.

It doesn't come with a receipt and isn't tax deductible.

Basically, "paying dues" is a term that describes gaining experience which you'll use in your career. Hopefully you can draw upon that experience when, every once in a while (and for lack of a better term), you think you're going to die.

In my opinion (and I may be wrong), if you think you're paying dues, you probably aren't. But if you're living in a doublewide with nine other guys building flight time at low pay to move up to a better job and a chance at advancement, you may be and not realizing it.

Yes, a lot of guys would shell out cash and go to Gulfstream.

And that's the reason why so many jobs in aviation pay absolutely as little as possible because by nature, pilots are cannibalistic and in large part, our own worst enemy.

I can guaratee you that there are a few thousand people that are willing to do my job for $5/hr after paying $35,000 for training, just under the guise of buliding flight time in an MD-88 for when American Airlines hires pilots, that they've got operational experience. Just ask EagleJet about their profits gleaned for their A320 program and anxious 800-hour pilots that thought 100 hours of A320 time was going to make JetBlue trip over themselves to award him with a job.

Pilots would claw other pilots eyeballs out to get ahead. Airlines, unscrupulous aircraft operators and everyone along the money trail understands and exploits that.

That's kind of why I'm here. PFT is wrong, PFT is evil and PFT is one of the absolute most degrading, demeaning, despicable and damaging thing in this profession and is one of the core reasons creating the caste structure of the haves and have-nots in the airline industry.
 

Sprint100

Well-Known Member
[ QUOTE ]
Paying Dues is a euphemism.
It doesn't come with a receipt and isn't tax deductible.

[/ QUOTE ]

With that being said, my understanding of payin' dues is totally different. I've grown up with the perception that "payin' dues" basically defined HOW you got from point A to point B in life. Some pay major dues, others don't pay squat.
I don't care what anybody says, if you make it through school/training (without cheating LOL) you've paid some major dues.
It's not all about how bad you have it or how broke you are. You can still be rich and strugglin', just like you can be poor and strugglin'............................
 

CK

Well-Known Member
So is there somthing wrong with me? I probally won't pay for much of my training so am going to be frowned upon by other pilots? If that's the case doesn't make much sence because if they were in my situation they wouldn't say no. So is there something wrong with me if I don't ''pay my dues''?
 

Derg

New Arizona, Il Duce/Warlord
Staff member
[ QUOTE ]
So is there somthing wrong with me? I probally won't pay for much of my training so am going to be frowned upon by other pilots? If that's the case doesn't make much sence because if they were in my situation they wouldn't say no. So is there something wrong with me if I don't ''pay my dues''?


[/ QUOTE ]

I think you misunderstood.

Compare Gulfstream Airlines to Skyway Airlines.

Skyway Airlines interviews pilots, makes a decision that they're going to complete training on time, have a good work ethic and then invests in the employee.

Gulfstream Airlines sells FO jobs. If the meet the minimum qualifications and have the money, they will literally sell you a temporary FO job to kids that think they're going to enjoy an edge over the competition by having 500 hours of purchased Beech 1900 time.
 

DE727UPS

Well-Known Member
Dear Sprint

"if schools like Gulfstream and all them others weren't looked down upon (I still don't know why, noone has given a clearcut reason as to why)"

Clearcut reason number one: When pilots are willing to pay to do a job that is normally a paid position and when management gets used to pilots being a revenue source....it lowers the bar and degrades the profession.

WHAT PART OF THAT DON'T YOU UNDERSTAND....
 

Sprint100

Well-Known Member
Re: Dear Sprint

[ QUOTE ]
Clearcut reason number one: When pilots are willing to pay to do a job that is normally a paid position and when management gets used to pilots being a revenue source....it lowers the bar and degrades the profession.


[/ QUOTE ]

That reason doesn't hold water and hopefully YOU CAN UNDERSTAND. If the bar were lowered, you'd have ridicuolously low minimum requirements. Does it really degrade the profession? How many people know what Gulfstream is? Most probably think it is a river on the coast of Mexico.
All I can say is that, if Gulfstream is hiring these terrible pilots, then they should be out of business. I can show you plenty of airlines that hired high time pilots and are out of business.
Oh yeah, you say it lowers the bar and degrades the profession. Come to me with some evidence that shows a swing in hiring trends due to PFT/PFE/PFJ.

P.S. - I don't take it personal if you just say I don't like PFT/PFE/PFJ.
 

Derg

New Arizona, Il Duce/Warlord
Staff member
Re: Dear Sprint

It's not a matter of low time pilots, but you're arguing with two civilian airline pilots about perspectives on pay-for-training/pay-for-a-job programs.

Honestly, I want all of my users to succeed because they'll send more users, I'll sell more advertising and we all benefit. I try to shoot as straight as possible and if it was a beneficial program, worthy of the money, I'd say "go for it" but it isn't.

Here's something to consider. There are several thousand pilots on the market with thousands of hours of jet time in a FAR part 121 operational environment. Some even have PIC in transport category aircraft as well.

So a new pilot plunks down $25,000 (or whatever the price is) to purchase a FO job to fly right seat for 500 hours. Now he's a 700 hour pilot with 500 hours of Beech 1900 time from Gulfstream and after earning his 500th hour, he's back on the street, unemployed and $25,000-more in debt.

The pilot still isn't competitive, has a higher debt load and probably is going to waste another 8 months waiting for regionals to trip over themselves to offer him a job until he realizes that he'd better get a CFI ticket to build up his total time.

On a personal level, I got a job flying corporate right out of college which dried up pretty quick. So I found myself being a fresh ERAU grad with corporate turbine experience and had the misguided notion that regionals and corporate outfits were going to blow my phone up with job offers and ultraswank deals.

Get a CFI? Me? Come on, I've been flying around a King Air C90, have a degree and flight training from ERAU? I had more turbine time than many of my fellow 1993 graduates had total time!

Umm, perhaps my telephone is off the hook.

Is my pager working?

Did I get any mail today?

Maybe I sent those resumes to the wrong addresses.

A few months later after the faltering corporate job lost all chances of returning, boy oh boy, I'd better get my CFI.

500 hours from Gulfstream in a 1900? I think you'd get more benefit by keeping that money in your financial 'war chest'.
 

DE727UPS

Well-Known Member
Re: Dear Sprint

"Come to me with some evidence that shows a swing in hiring trends due to PFT/PFE/PFJ."

Dude....why wait for world war 3 to happen before you take steps to keep it from happening. If a hiring trend swings then we lost the war.....

Doug, Miked, Me, and ALL the other high timers are BIG TIME against PFT and the Gstream scheme.

You do whatever makes you happy. None of your arguments hold a drop of water with me. At some point you gotta ask yourself why you are swimming upstream against the flow....don't let that log hit you in the face....
 

Sprint100

Well-Known Member
Re: Dear Sprint

[ QUOTE ]
Dude....why wait for world war 3 to happen before you take steps to keep it from happening. If a hiring trend swings then we lost the war.....


[/ QUOTE ]
I love it when people go to extremes to try and prove a point.

[ QUOTE ]
Doug, Miked, Me, and ALL the other high timers are BIG TIME against PFT and the Gstream scheme.

[/ QUOTE ]
I can appreciate that being said because everyone is entitled to an opinion. You can be for or against whatever you want.

[ QUOTE ]
You do whatever makes you happy. None of your arguments hold a drop of water with me. At some point you gotta ask yourself why you are swimming upstream against the flow....don't let that log hit you in the face....

[/ QUOTE ]
Whenever I can I do what makes me happy. Whether my arguments hold water with you or not, does not effect me one way or the other. I'm not trying to get you to accept my perceptions. Obviously, you seem to be more experienced in the area(not being said sarcastically at all).
Lastly, It's not always about going with the flow for me. Going against the flow has its pluses and minuses, just like going with the flow does.

P.S. - Thanks for explaining Doug
 

Derg

New Arizona, Il Duce/Warlord
Staff member
Re: Dear Sprint

The point that there are so many pilots willing to pay hard earned scratch for a cockpit job works it all the way up the food chain.

It's hard to ask for an honest days pay for an honest days work when just around the corner, there's a line of newbie pilots lined up to play "pilot" for 250 hours* and a $23,940* fee.

I got a good look at that when we were negotiating our first contract at Skyway. The chief pilot drops a few hundred resumes on the negotiating table and says, "I have several hundred pilots that are willing to do your job today, for less money, why should we give the pilots a raise?"

*According to the Gulfstream Academy website.
 

aloft

New Member
[ QUOTE ]
So is there somthing wrong with me? I probally won't pay for much of my training so am going to be frowned upon by other pilots? ... So is there something wrong with me if I don't ''pay my dues''?


[/ QUOTE ]Rich kids like you are fairly common in aviation, they're how pay-for-experience outfits like Gulfstream stay in business. I can't say for certain whether other pilots will frown upon how you got your training, but I can imagine most airlines will look at your logbook, then your date of birth, then disregard entirely all the turbine time you logged at age 14. Why? Because it falls into the category of "unearned turbine time".
 

JDMcFly

New Member
I've said 1000 times (Well, probably 3- and it's just rehashing what others say), that even if it wasn't about 'paying dues' and CFI experiance, that isn't the major problem with PFT, or whatever you wish to call them, outfits.

I think working as a CFI can be a great experiance, it's what you make of it- personally, I can't wait to be one. It can be scary at times I am sure, but that's life for you.

I don't want to get into the debate about 'paying dues', as it is varies from person to person as to what that actually entails. Work your ass off, try and put what you can back into the community, and I think you're doing alright.

But what I am trying to say is:

That isn't even the main issue with PFT outfits. The issue is with job displacement and it's [PFT's] effect on the airline industry from a pilot's standpoint. Pilot pay is poor enough at the regional level, if (and that's a major if) a PFT trend were to ever continue beyond it's currently limited scheme, it would be devastating to pilots already finding it hard enough to get a poorly paying job, or make more money than current poverty levels.

With 'management' more and more often trying to find ways to cut costs, especially with pilot salaries, PFT outfits add more and more to their ammo against giving pilots any semi-respectable kind of pay.





Edit: If your well off (rich), why do anything different than someone who is not (poor, like me) in regards to working as a CFI? Just pay for your actual training without worrying as much about loans as other people, and continue like anyone else who wants to build time.
 

TheWife

New Member
Is it really displacing jobs though? I just mean, would Gulfstream even exsist if they didn't have these paid for jobs? If the only way they did their biz was to "give people this opportunity" then there is no job displacement right? I hope that made sense. Like if there was suddenly a rule against PFT would Gulfstream still be in biz and just have to pay pilots now, or would they just sut down as that was not the point. Are they really jobs too? I know Alpine it really is a job because you are hauling freight. Are the other ones actually jobs, hauling something that would have to have a paid pilot? Or are they just flying for the flying experience?
 

EatSleepFly

Well-Known Member
Gulfstream flies people. They pay their wannabe F/O's some measly hourly salary ($8, I think). Probably what would happen if they stopped the PFT thing, is they would just start hiring pilots with relatively low time (compared to other commuters/regionals), and pay them crap. Why? Because theres a whole bunch of knuckleheads that would not mind flying a BE-1900 for $8/hr....or even free for that matter.
 
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