Is this legal? Part 141 related

holyshirt

New Member
I copied this from my other thread titled "commercial students part 141 vs 61" because I need some responses on this kind of quickly

Before you continue reading.. I have two commercial students that were part 61 and have over 220 hours toward their certificate.. and suddenly out of nowhere the Chief pilot switched them into a 141 program without their consent .. saying that this is to their benefit (I fail to see how this will benefit). He did this with many other students as well, private,instrument and commercial students. Many of the instructors here who have students that are in a similar situation are boggled and are wondering the same thing that I am wondering. The CP says everything is legal.. but the instructors on the other hand, including myself are questioning this. We dont want to immediately run to the FAA. However we need to know for sure the legality of all this before we make our case.

So here we go

Is it legal for the CP to backdate 141 enrollment certificates????

Heres what I mean.. two of my commercial students were training under part 61. Well after I found out that the students were enrolled into the 141 program I checked their certificates of enrollments which were signed by the CP and back dated. In fact, one of my students enrollment certificates was backdated for over a year ago (almost 2 to be exact).. And guess what? It was signed by the CP but he was not the CP back then.. Isnt this a problem?!!!

This is very frustrating for me and the student because the CP says to "give credit" for what they did during their part 61 training toward their part 141 training. And he think that somehow they will get done in less time now that they are in the 141 program.

Number one I have no clue how to "give credit". Hes not very good at explaining this part to me or the students.

Number two I thought that according to the 141 regs that only 25% of prior training (part 61) can be accepted toward the 141 training.

Again.. even so, im pretty darn sure our CP cant just "backdate" enrollment certificates like this and he completely messed this one up because the date which he signed it for he was NOT chief pilot!

Im very very confused... and quite frankly Im afraid to get myself into trouble with this.

Any help would be appreciated.
 

Michael95U

Well-Known Member
It is absolutely illegal.

You cannot back date an enrollment certificate.

You cannot accept any more than 25% of training done under Part 61.

Michael
 

BajtheJino

I'm looking at you.
Why are the students not raising hell about this treatment? Students are customers and the like the saying goes-they are always right. Just tell your students to stand up for themselves or go someplace else. Seems to me that will solve the problem right there. Of course an anonymous phone call to your POI could also help the problem along, too.
 

ILS37R

Well-Known Member
I commented in your other thread but, in short: No. Don't let the CP push you, your students and the other instructors around. Finish your current students 61.

Try to shelter your students from the mess as best you can; they shouldn't have to deal with such nonsense.
 

Kmaceri

Well-Known Member
My flight school put me in 61 from 141 without my consent because the FAA was coming to inspect or some stuff and I raised hell so they put me back in 141.
 

gear_goes_down

New Member
NO WAY!

If your com. student has 220 hrs and wants to complete under 61 he just needs to get up to 250 hrs like we all know. However, with the 220 hrs and the 141 com. course is 120 hrs like mine is he will need to have 300+ hrs! That in no way would benefit him. Even if I got a new student with 220 hrs I would advise to finish under part 61!

Your CP could get in trouble for falsifying records! Good luck!
 

Maurus

The Great Gazoo
The Chief can't just randomly put someone on the 141 ticket. It doesn't work that way. Those records would be fraudulent. Also it wont help the students in any way as they probably wont be done with their commercial till 250 hours anyway and the change will be pointless. A part 61 commercial license is the same as a 141 license. No difference. If your Chief flight instructor keep pushing you either bring it up to the owner/manager of the flight school as they wont want the Part 141 ticket revoked. If that doesn't work leave for another school.

Telling the FAA about it is optional, but I probably would just let the FAA find out on their own.
 

esa17

Well-Known Member
Your CP is risking the flight schools' certificate and very well might be putting yours at risk. The instructor has to sign off on all 141 records that they are accurate and if you do that knowing they are in fact false then your butt joins those over the fire. I would highly consider finding another place of employ most ricky-tick.

But...
My flight school put me in 61 from 141 without my consent because the FAA was coming to inspect or some stuff and I raised hell so they put me back in 141.
The flight school has the right to terminate you from the program if they think you are a liability to their first time pass-rate which must be maintained.
 

Kmaceri

Well-Known Member
Your CP is risking the flight schools' certificate and very well might be putting yours at risk. The instructor has to sign off on all 141 records that they are accurate and if you do that knowing they are in fact false then your butt joins those over the fire. I would highly consider finding another place of employ most ricky-tick.

But...


The flight school has the right to terminate you from the program if they think you are a liability to their first time pass-rate which must be maintained.

This is not the case, they did it too many students with out notification. They had lost their 141 ticket about a year from when they did this to me and im guessing they were doing something wrong and didnt want to do this again so they put in 61 as well as many others.
 

Goonie

Never say die
WOW!!

What your CP is doing is highly illegal! It could actually land him in jail. 141 records supersede even a log book entry.

Have you signed any pre-dated 141 documents? Don't!! Then you are just as liable.

I would not go to the FAA before I go to the owner of the school, maybe it can be handled internally.

I've been a CP for a very big 141 school over a year now and the paperwork can be a you know what sometimes. Our POI does base inspections every now and then and it usually goes pretty smooth, with some minor mistakes.

One thing they will not stand is fraudulent paperwork!
 

Goonie

Never say die
Again.. even so, im pretty darn sure our CP cant just "backdate" enrollment certificates like this and he completely messed this one up because the date which he signed it for he was NOT chief pilot!
His POI is going to catch that VERY quick if that is the case.
 

esa17

Well-Known Member
This is not the case, they did it too many students with out notification. They had lost their 141 ticket about a year from when they did this to me and im guessing they were doing something wrong and didnt want to do this again so they put in 61 as well as many others.
I can see how my statement could be taken as an affront to your pilot abilities, that was not my intent. However, the 141 school has the right to terminate you from the 141 program for any reason they can justify.
 
R

Roger, Roger

Guest
It's more likely that their 141 paperwork for him was not in order, and they knew it, so they took him out of it for the inspection.
 

minitour

New Member
What makes you think that? I don't think so.
Correct.

Notice everything in 141.101 says "...that the Student has terminated...", not "the school has terminated...".

141 suggests that the student can terminate enrollment, but not the school. However ... if you've got someone not paying, you don't have to let them fly and then they'll fall behind the rules in your TCO/SOP for progress in a given amount of time and .... subsequently be removed from the program for non-compliance.

That's about all ya got.

-mini
 
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