Is it worth it?

F

flyboy110b

New Member
Hey everyone! I'm Brian.. I'm new to the JC forum and this is actually my first posting here.

so ever since I was little, i've wanted to fly. I think most guys like me just have a love affair with machinery and airplanes are on the top of that list.
Now to let you all know a bit about myself.. I'm 22 years old, and I will be graduating this December with an A.S. degree from a local junior college. I'm a fairly good student with a B average.. I have about 15 hours in a few different aircraft (C172/152, Diamond DA-20, Super Decathalon, and a T-6 texan) I completed my PPL ground school in my first year of high school, but a lack of money has put a stop to my training so far..After next semester, well...that's what i've been thinking about for a long time. :banghead:
I know a have a few options, and hopefully i'll hear from a few of you who have done them.

1) I can forget about flying for now (which is hard to do) and finish up a 4 year degree. However I don't know what i'd do other than aviation, which is what i'm most motivated about. Closest 4yr is UC Berkeley, and to be honest I dont think i'm berkeley material. I wanted to go to Embry Riddle, or UND which has a great campus, i think it'd be the greatest experience for me.. but being an average, middle class white male somehow makes me unfit for financial aid.. so a 100k+ school is out of the question. :mad:
I've also looked into the AFROTC program at UCB. It looked pretty promising, but I had a few issues with the military.. One, I'm not sure if I'd be chosen for a pilot slot because I have sinus problems.. not allergic to anything but pollen, but unless i have surgery, congestion will be a daily problem till i die. And really, I've never been one to let anyone dictate my life, so not choosing where I live and what I do for a living isn't okay with me. I've had a few friends join (army) and all but one has said it was the worst decision they ever made.. anyways!

2) I can earn my certifications at my local FBO at KCCR. now according to one of the two part 141 schools there.. I can get my PPL, Instrument, Commercial single and multi, with a total of 255 hours all for 49k. CFI rating is another 15 hours and an extra 4.4k. so 270 hours for 54k (fuel surcharge not included, whatever the hell that is..) Here I can take my time and learn as I go, but it could take me forever to earn all I need.

3) I could attend ATP and go through the ACPP with the PPL. I'm going to get the same hours (I realize 50 hours are simulated) and for only a couple thousand more dollars, i get every I could get at an FBO but a lot faster. I know doing all that in 6 months is a lot of work, but at the rate I'm going, I'll never get a job as a pilot. I feel that I'd be much happier working as a CFI no matter how little it pays. and if I wanted to finish my degree, i could do it then. My jobs are going nowhere, I got laid off in feburary and have been searching since. I'm not serving coffee for picky mother effer anymore. If i'm going no where, it might as well be on a road I want to be on.

I know i've written alot already, so I'll sum it up here. Should I finish school even though i find it hard to be motivated to do so sometimes? Should I take my chances with AFROTC? Should I take a full time job and earn my licences over a period of a decade or more? Or should I get it all done asap at ATP and be in debt to SM for the next 15 or so years? There's still a bit about loans I dont understand, so those who have gotten one for this, please enliten me on every detail

also..if anyone was curious, I was hoping to attend the new ATP opening at Oakland International. Has anyone been to a new atp location? What are my chances getting hired by ATP there when Im done?

ok guys, I'll cut it here.. its 4 am anyways, better get some rest. Any advice from the pros will be much apreciated.
 
Given what you've described your situation to be, I probably wouldn't recommend it.

Since you're not in a rush to get done, the benefit of the 90 day program is sort of lost. I enjoyed my time at ATP and I think I received a decent education. But I think nowadays you should be able to find an unemployed RJ FO looking to make some cash and stay current.

If you have $60k burning a hole in your pocket, I'd say go for it. Considering the market on airplanes right now I think I'd blow half of it on a decent 172 and the rest on gas and instruction.
 
Finish a four year degree, this should be your first priority. If you dreams of flying do not work out you will need this. Second, do not get a degree in anything related to aviation unless your want to be an engineer of some sort. The military could be a good option but you will need a 4 year degree to be an officer/fly. If you have the money get your private first, it is by far the most fun rating and it will tell you if you really want to continue. Go the FBO route, there is no rush to finish right now, furloughs, mins going up, etc. Take your time and don't go into debt, you will really regret it. The airlines are not going anywhere, get a degree, enjoy the college life, drink beer, chase women etc. THERE IS NO RUSH, YOU ARE NOT MISSING ANYTHING RIGHT NOW. Best of luck, keep us posted on what you decide to do.
 
flyboy110b said:
Hey everyone! I'm Brian.. I'm new to the JC forum and this is actually my first posting here.

so ever since I was little, i've wanted to fly. I think most guys like me just have a love affair with machinery and airplanes are on the top of that list.
Now to let you all know a bit about myself.. I'm 22 years old, and I will be graduating this December with an A.S. degree from a local junior college. I'm a fairly good student with a B average.. I have about 15 hours in a few different aircraft (C172/152, Diamond DA-20, Super Decathalon, and a T-6 texan) I completed my PPL ground school in my first year of high school, but a lack of money has put a stop to my training so far..After next semester, well...that's what i've been thinking about for a long time. :banghead:
I know a have a few options, and hopefully i'll hear from a few of you who have done them.

1) I can forget about flying for now (which is hard to do) and finish up a 4 year degree. However I don't know what i'd do other than aviation, which is what i'm most motivated about. Closest 4yr is UC Berkeley, and to be honest I dont think i'm berkeley material. I wanted to go to Embry Riddle, or UND which has a great campus, i think it'd be the greatest experience for me.. but being an average, middle class white male somehow makes me unfit for financial aid.. so a 100k+ school is out of the question. :mad:
I've also looked into the AFROTC program at UCB. It looked pretty promising, but I had a few issues with the military.. One, I'm not sure if I'd be chosen for a pilot slot because I have sinus problems.. not allergic to anything but pollen, but unless i have surgery, congestion will be a daily problem till i die. And really, I've never been one to let anyone dictate my life, so not choosing where I live and what I do for a living isn't okay with me. I've had a few friends join (army) and all but one has said it was the worst decision they ever made.. anyways!

2) I can earn my certifications at my local FBO at KCCR. now according to one of the two part 141 schools there.. I can get my PPL, Instrument, Commercial single and multi, with a total of 255 hours all for 49k. CFI rating is another 15 hours and an extra 4.4k. so 270 hours for 54k (fuel surcharge not included, whatever the hell that is..) Here I can take my time and learn as I go, but it could take me forever to earn all I need.

3) I could attend ATP and go through the ACPP with the PPL. I'm going to get the same hours (I realize 50 hours are simulated) and for only a couple thousand more dollars, i get every I could get at an FBO but a lot faster. I know doing all that in 6 months is a lot of work, but at the rate I'm going, I'll never get a job as a pilot. I feel that I'd be much happier working as a CFI no matter how little it pays. and if I wanted to finish my degree, i could do it then. My jobs are going nowhere, I got laid off in feburary and have been searching since. I'm not serving coffee for picky mother effer anymore. If i'm going no where, it might as well be on a road I want to be on.

I know i've written alot already, so I'll sum it up here. Should I finish school even though i find it hard to be motivated to do so sometimes? Should I take my chances with AFROTC? Should I take a full time job and earn my licences over a period of a decade or more? Or should I get it all done asap at ATP and be in debt to SM for the next 15 or so years? There's still a bit about loans I dont understand, so those who have gotten one for this, please enliten me on every detail

also..if anyone was curious, I was hoping to attend the new ATP opening at Oakland International. Has anyone been to a new atp location? What are my chances getting hired by ATP there when Im done?

ok guys, I'll cut it here.. its 4 am anyways, better get some rest. Any advice from the pros will be much apreciated.
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The timing for ATP has pasted. There is almost 0 value to going there now. Your chance of being hired at an airline after you complete ATP is almost 0 at least this year. The only thing about atp is the ability to get your ratings quickly. There is no need for that now. As it's been said, you are not missing anything, in fact it's a blessing because you can actually take the time to get your ratings. I realize it's probably more expensive up there but try to find a cheap fbo, don't worry about pt141. Make a deal with a local CFI for long term rates and get your private, inst etc. I would strongly recommended you finish school and get a BS. DO NOT quit school to go into flying full time in this market, you are not missing anything. In fact more and more are leaving pro flying altogether and going back to school for different professions.
 
One, I'm not sure if I'd be chosen for a pilot slot because I have sinus problems.. not allergic to anything but pollen, but unless i have surgery, congestion will be a daily problem till i die.
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Try eliminating dairy products from your diet. That should decrease your sinus problems.

There are ways to make your dreams a reality--don't let ANYONE deter you from achieving them! The suggestions on this post are good and take a wise and conservative approach with your well-being in mind so you're never it a real rut. But remember you're PIC of your own career! Here's one of the most inspiring stories I've seen recently about realizing one's aviation goals: www.experienceaviation.org

I'd second the motion that if time isn't an issue (and it shouldn't be, given all the furloughs and unemployed pilots now). I enjoyed my ATP training--it is VERY cut-n-dry: you get the ratings. Period. Don't look there to become a seasoned, well-rounded pilot overnight. The ACPP expects you to work hard, so you need to be very motivated all the time. It is intense, and you will likely finish it in less than the time they allot (90-days or 10-months at your pace). You will never 'feel' ready for any checkride...but they all come and go quickly! This might even cause you to bust a checkride, but that comes and goes quickly too. It sounds like you can get the same for cheaper at your local school. Continue to ask questions, challenge what people tell you when it doesn't make sense, and research the concepts you don't understand while always seeking the best information available (sometimes this requires your own judgement, reseach and due diligence, although starting by asking on an aviation forum is a great start).

Above all, don't stop flying! Fly often, move toward your goals (i.e., don't just bore holes in the sky), and never accept sub-par anything (instruction, airplanes, sleep, etc.). Getting your degree is great and pretty much necessary, but be prepared to fly when the opportunity presents itself.

My two-cent pep talk has ended; now go fly. Good luck & best wishes!

-A.S.
 
flyboy110b said:
I've also looked into the AFROTC program at UCB. It looked pretty promising, but I had a few issues with the military.. One, I'm not sure if I'd be chosen for a pilot slot because I have sinus problems.. not allergic to anything but pollen, but unless i have surgery, congestion will be a daily problem till i die. And really, I've never been one to let anyone dictate my life, so not choosing where I live and what I do for a living isn't okay with me.
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If you're honestly not comfortable with others choosing where you have to live, you might want to think twice about aviation as a career. Airline pilots can jumpseat so they can live just about anywhere they want regardless of where their routes originate. But very few people start out as airline pilots these days and non-airline jobs are not exactly plentiful. So if you're going to be a pilot and the only decent job you can get is in Bumfuc Arkansas, guess where you're moving for the next year or two whether you like it or not.
 
Right now ATP is not worth it. There is very little hiring happening, if at all. Get the degree, and the ratings at the sametime. You could do the online classes at most universities (cheaper) and do your ratings, and work at an FBO ( get to know people). Come to HWD and see it all.
 
hey all, thanks for everyone's input.. i guess i'll have to figure out something here soon.. I just figured, well i can either borrow money for school.. or I can borrow money for career training.. either way i'll be in debt. However intrest rates are as low as they're going to be for a while, but tuition goes up steadily every couple years. Its just that i've had a few friends graduate already, and not even find jobs in their fields.. they're stuck working full time entry level jobs and work up. You guys know (cbs i think it was who did the repot) that like 60% of graduating students dont find jobs for about two years or more? I see the enocomy has this vicious circle, where companies want experience and education, however education offers no real experience in a field, and if you have to work to pay for that education like i do, its probly at a crappy job and your experience there wont make a friggen difference later. I've worked longer, and in a greater variety of jobs than my friends, yet they're getting spending their financial aid money on whatever..if only i had a pair of tits I could go shake em and make more money in tips than I get in a regular paycheck now..:nana2:
and as for the military thing.. its not that i dont think i can handle it, or that I can follow orders or anything.. I just like a little assurance in life, and from what I've heard the military just gives people the runaround and a lot of bs when things need to get done. I'd hate to join and find out later that I can't fly. That's like someone here applying for an airline, getting hired and signing a contract, but then later they say they're full on pilots, so you get to work as a baggage thrower. and there's no quiting until your contract is up.. wouldnt that suck? However I'm sure the military offers things that i cant get anywhere else, and I'd love to be a part of that. I just dont want to be another bad case like the people i know who've gone and come back. Its the military jitters everyone gets before joining.

I think I'm still going to take the AFROTC class for now since there's no comittment yet and see how things go with that.. Has anyone here completed that program and gotten a pilot slot? I guess that's a question for the military section.
 
Get a four year degree.
Flying is great, but you don't need to drop everything now to fly every waking minute.
 
Like many others on here I too have been wondering if any of these big flight schools (ATP, Delta Academy, etc.) are even worth spending the time and money on? Right now I'm an OTS pilot select for the Air Force but I'm waiting on a waiver to get approved for my FC1 for having been on prozac in college; so I'm weighing my other career flying options should for some reason this opportunity not take flight (no pun intended). I already have my PPL and about 50 hours or so.

Has anyone gone through any of these pilot mills that would recommend them? What are the pros/cons of a big flight academy as opposed to getting all of your ratings done through a local FBO? From what I understand they roughly are about equal in terms of overall cost to get from a PPL to an ATP, is this an accurate statement?

Any airline/cargo/corporate pilots out there who care to weigh-in on their take of the current status of the aviation industry for wannabe pilots like me? I've heard and read some not-so-good things in terms of wanting a career in the industry as a pilot during this bad economy...

Thanks in advance!
 
hey DM, question for you.. since you're in OTS, what did you major in? I'm trying to figure out whether or not its that important that you have a science degree. The closest 4yr around is UC berkeley, and I thought of doing engineering, but i'm not that smart.. high level physics and statics and chemistry are just way over my head. more info than a pilot needs to know anyways. So maybe in stead do architecture.. or embry riddle has a campus next to KOAK. and ya, I have noticed that my local FBO is not much cheaper than ATP, concidering that i'd be flying a 30 year old 152 most of that time. but fuel prices here in the bay area are just going to get higher and higher.

and a hot tip for you guys in the bay area.. Standford flying club is looking for an instructor.
 
Don't let anyone fool you into buying into a program.

The regionals, when they are hiring, don't care if you have 150 MPIC because guess what, your going to be an FO until your number is called.

Take the money you plan on spending, rent a 152, better yet a cub or champ and go have fun to build your hours.

You should only have to pay for 253 hours of flight time. 250 for commercial and if you do it right, about 3 hours in the plane to get a CFI. Don't pay for the rest of the 1247 hours needed for an ATP.
 
What ever happened to all the pro-ATP guys that used to post here? Capt Bob?

Anyhow, I agree that ATP isn't worth the money. Understand that most of the best jobs in aviation require a four year degree. If you want to shoot for the top and don't have one, you'll be at a distinct disadvantage. Not saying you can't do it, and not saying it's never happened, but why stack the odds against yourself? Also, if you have a degree in a non-aviation second area of interest, then you are better off for setting yourself up for a fall back second career during the times when aviation is slow or if you lose your medical.

The best thing you can do is minimize debt and get to where you can build time as a professional pilot as inexpensively as possible.
 
flyboy110b said:
Hey everyone! I'm Brian.. I'm new to the JC forum and this is actually my first posting here.

so ever since I was little, i've wanted to fly. I think most guys like me just have a love affair with machinery and airplanes are on the top of that list.
Now to let you all know a bit about myself.. I'm 22 years old, and I will be graduating this December with an A.S. degree from a local junior college. I'm a fairly good student with a B average.. I have about 15 hours in a few different aircraft (C172/152, Diamond DA-20, Super Decathalon, and a T-6 texan) I completed my PPL ground school in my first year of high school, but a lack of money has put a stop to my training so far..After next semester, well...that's what i've been thinking about for a long time. :banghead:
I know a have a few options, and hopefully i'll hear from a few of you who have done them.


I know i've written alot already, so I'll sum it up here. Should I finish school even though i find it hard to be motivated to do so sometimes? Should I take my chances with AFROTC? Should I take a full time job and earn my licences over a period of a decade or more? Or should I get it all done asap at ATP and be in debt to SM for the next 15 or so years? There's still a bit about loans I dont understand, so those who have gotten one for this, please enliten me on every detail

also..if anyone was curious, I was hoping to attend the new ATP opening at Oakland International. Has anyone been to a new atp location? What are my chances getting hired by ATP there when Im done?

ok guys, I'll cut it here.. its 4 am anyways, better get some rest. Any advice from the pros will be much apreciated.
Click to expand...


Ever since I was a wee lad all I wanted to do was go to the airport(just ask my parents). The best advice anyone can ever give you is to listen to what is going on inside. I wish I would've fully(100%) pursued what I've always wanted to do, especially from my high school days. Many years I thought being a pilot wasn't for me because of the schedule, time away from potential family, and what have you. However, since I decided to just do it I've learned that being a pilot is really the only job for me. Now I litterally can't see myself doing anything else. I wish I would've just pursued flying whole-heartedly from day one, but oh well, sometimes it takes a while but we all figure it out.

The truth is no one can tell you what to do. At best we can only make suggiestions based on our own experience and hope you do what's best for you and everyone around you. Should you do this or that? Well, what do you think and feel? I personally wish I would've been more focused during my days at college but oh well. I wasn't and was lost as far as a career went for a few years, then threw all my marbles into the ATP basket. Now I have no regrets about anything, even though I'm in debt up to my eyeballs with no college degree. I just wish I was as focused then as I am now, even though I've never been to the regionals and have been flight instructing for over two years, don't let anything or anyone stop you from achieving what you dream. There is nothing more rewarding then pursuing(and achieving) what you dream of. Just ask most of the people you went to high school with...


So basically, there is no right or wrong decision. Just choose whatever you think works best for you then give it all you've got and don't ever let anyone tell you you can't. If ever since you were little you wanted to fly then what's stopping you? The answer is simple, only YOU my friend!!
 
flyboy110b said:
hey DM, question for you.. since you're in OTS, what did you major in? I'm trying to figure out whether or not its that important that you have a science degree. The closest 4yr around is UC berkeley, and I thought of doing engineering, but i'm not that smart.. high level physics and statics and chemistry are just way over my head. more info than a pilot needs to know anyways. So maybe in stead do architecture.. or embry riddle has a campus next to KOAK. and ya, I have noticed that my local FBO is not much cheaper than ATP, concidering that i'd be flying a 30 year old 152 most of that time. but fuel prices here in the bay area are just going to get higher and higher.

and a hot tip for you guys in the bay area.. Standford flying club is looking for an instructor.
Click to expand...

Hey, I'm actually not at OTS yet - won't go until springtime next year, unfortunately :(. There's kind of a back-up of pilots commissioned via OTS waiting to attend UPT; hence my long wait. My degree was in finance and I still got a pilot slot. Your degree doesn't matter a whole lot in the overall selection process. If you want to get more quality info on going to OTS then you should check out www.airforceots.com
 
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