Iranian President dies in helicopter crash.

srleslie said:
I'm surprised no one has mentioned this here. It's certainly interesting in that it seems to be a true accident instead of something more nefarious. They were flying in mountainous terrain, with fog, and no distress call was made that we know of. I'm guessing this is classic CFIT like we saw with Kobe Bryant.

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it is being discussed in the LAvatory "....never ending conflict .... thread"
 
It’s unknown. While Wx is what people default to because of the Wx, it could just as easily have been a mechanical issue which Wx may or may not have exacerbated, or a crew issue which may or may not have been exacerbated by Wx, or a direct Wx impact itself as primary causal. Aside from anything nefarious, which cannot yet be ruled out considering no comms and just a smoking hole in the ground.
 
MikeD said:
Aside from anything nefarious, which cannot yet be ruled out considering no comms and just a smoking hole in the ground.
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I’m willing to rule that out unless it was an inside job because even the Iranians haven’t blamed anyone for it (other than sanctions by the us causing maintenance issues)
 
NovemberEcho said:
I’m willing to rule that out unless it was an inside job because even the Iranians haven’t blamed anyone for it (other than sanctions by the us causing maintenance issues)
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Nefarious could mean inside or outside job. And not necessarily even outside political. Sabotage could happen from someone inside. Doubt we would ever know if it happened to be true.

Could just as easily be a Mx error. Hard to say.

As far as the Israelis, this is too far a bridge to cross politically or otherwise. Just as the Iranians wouldn’t be stupid enough to ever assassinate Netanyahu.
 
MikeD said:
Nefarious could mean inside or outside job. And not necessarily even outside political. Sabotage could happen from someone inside. Doubt we would ever know if it happened to be true.

Could just as easily be a Mx error. Hard to say.

As far as the Israelis, this is too far a bridge to cross politically or otherwise. Just as the Iranians wouldn’t be stupid enough to ever assassinate Netanyahu.
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I don't see a motive here for Israel. There's no reason to believe the next president of Iran will be any less of a hardliner. Heck, the next one could be worse. Better to deal with the devil you know.
 
Maybe the cause is related to more than one factor. The one that sticks out is I read somewhere they might've been traveling in a Bell 214, an American helicopter (it might be 50 years old at this point) that they had any factory or American support (parts and expertise) pulled from them after the overthrow of the Shah. A 50 year old helicopter that's been maintained "somehow", launches in bad weather in an area that isn't as flat as a pool table with the president onboard doesn't sound like a recipe for success. And when I say that all of their support was immediately removed. I'll once again refer to a person I knew that was living in Iran with his family and he worked for Bell Helicopter as a contractor when the Shah went down. He told me that one morning a couple of US government cars showed up at his house and basically told him and his family they needed to pack up what would fit in the cars immediately because they were leaving, then they drove them to the airport and put them on the next available flight out. He wasn't an executive for Bell, he was a mechanic.
 
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srleslie said:
I don't see a motive here for Israel. There's no reason to believe the next president of Iran will be any less of a hardliner. Heck, the next one could be worse. Better to deal with the devil you know.
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Agreed. That possibility makes little sense. Just like the reverse would. Neither side wants an all out war.
 
knot4u said:
Maybe the cause is related to more than one factor. The one that sticks out is I read somewhere they might've been traveling in a Bell 214, an American helicopter (it might be 50 years old at this point) that they had any factory or American support (parts and expertise) pulled from them after the overthrow of the Shah. A 50 year old helicopter that's been maintained "somehow", launches in bad weather in an area that isn't as flat as a pool table with the president onboard doesn't sound like a recipe for success. And when I say that all of their support was immediately removed. I'll once again refer to a person I knew that was living in Iran with his family and he worked for Bell Helicopter as a contractor when the Shah went down. He told me that one morning a couple of US government cars showed up at his house and basically told him and his family they needed to pack up what would fit in the cars immediately because they were leaving, then they drove them to the airport and put them on the next available flight out. He wasn't an executive for Bell, he was a mechanic.
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One thing that was left in Iran during the fall in 79, was all the Bell production facilities and tooling. They were building AH-1J Sea Cobra and UH-1N/212 and Bell 214s there. All that stuff was left behind. Iranian mechs had been working on these helos and other, along with jets and large Boeing/Lockheed planes, so none of this was new to them, but they did have to get production stuff translated over to Farsi. What parts they didn’t have, they manufactured. But they did start running out of parts.

Then, in the early 1980s, some real politik happened. The US needed to fund the anti-communist Contras group in El Salvador who were fighting the communist Sandianistas of Nicaragua required funding and arming. Congress had forbidden the Reagan administration of directly funding them. So, the plan to indirectly fund them, went into motion. The Iran/Contra plan saw the US in back channel communications with Iran, who was having a hell of a time in their war with Iraq, which started at the worst possible time for Iran…immediately post-revolution. Iran needed equipment. US needed the Contras funded. US agreed to send secondhand mil equipment to Iran, which is what they were operating anyway, in exchange for Iran putting the money for those items into an account funding the Contras. Iran received TOW missiles, early gen M16s and M60s, tons of ammo for same, 90mm and 106mm recoilless rifles, Redeye SAMs, Hawk SAMs, lots of parts for UH-1 and AH-1 helos, mostly models we didn’t fly ever or flew upgraded models of. Parts for F-4s sent through other countries and munitions like Mk series bombs with early PW-1 guidance kits, early EO AGM-65 missiles, lots of bench stock that we didn’t use much anymore. That’s a big part of how they have been able to sustain their 1980s military for so long. The helo that the President was riding on was likely well maintained, or perhaps if a Mx cause to this crash, had something fail or a maintainer failure like happens to any other aircraft. Or if pilot error, likely no different than what happened to pilots anywhere. It’s interesting and impressive what the Iranians have been able to maintain as frontline equipment, including doing depot-level rebuilds and Mx.
 
MikeD said:
One thing that was left in Iran during the fall in 79, was all the Bell production facilities and tooling. They were building AH-1J Sea Cobra and UH-1N/212 and Bell 214s there. All that stuff was left behind. Iranian mechs had been working on these helos and other, along with jets and large Boeing/Lockheed planes, so none of this was new to them, but they did have to get production stuff translated over to Farsi. What parts they didn’t have, they manufactured. But they did start running out of parts.

Then, in the early 1980s, some real politik happened. The US needed to fund the anti-communist Contras group in El Salvador who were figuring the communist Sandianistas of Nicaragua required funding and arming. Congress had forbidden the Reagan administration of directly funding them. So, the plan to indirectly fund them, went into motion. The Iran/Contra plan saw the US in back channel communications with Iran, who was having a hell of a time in their war with Iraq, which started at the worst possible time for Iran…immediately post-revolution. Iran needed equipment. US needed the Contras funded. US agreed to send secondhand mil equipment to Iran, which is what they were operating anyway, in exchange for Iran putting the money for those items into an account funding the Contras. Iran received TOW missiles, early gen M16s and M60s, tons of ammo for same, 90mm and 106mm recoilless rifles, Redeye SAMs, Hawk SAMs, lots of parts for UH-1 and AH-1 helos, mostly models we didn’t fly ever or flew upgraded models of. Parts for F-4s sent through other countries and munitions like Mk series bombs with early PW-1 guidance kits, early EO AGM-65 missiles, lots of bench stock that we didn’t use much anymore. That’s a big part of how they have been able to sustain their 1980s military for so long. The helo that the President was riding on was likely well maintained, or perhaps if a Mx cause to this crash, had something fail or a maintainer failure like happens to any other aircraft. Or if pilot error, likely no different than what happened to pilots anywhere. Its interesting and impressive what the Iranians have been able to maintain as frontline equipment, including doing depot-level rebuilds and Mx
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So they're still building brand new Iranian Bell helicopters? I've always imagined their aviation industry a lot like the Cuban automotive industry, but I have zero personal experience in either. Where do they get the engines?
 
Don't get me wrong, as far as I know Iran was the most modern country in the Middle East until the Shah was overthrown and then it became what it is today. My friend loved it there, right up until he didn't.
 
knot4u said:
So they're still building brand new Iranian Bell helicopters? I've always imagined their aviation industry a lot like the Cuban automotive industry, but I have zero personal experience in either. Where do they get the engines?
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They probably got a lot of parts for same from the Iran deal, lots of bench stock. Plus, the engine parts can easily be sourced for the Lycomings from any of the tons of countries around the world who fly the Bell products.
Not sure if they are producing anything new. But moreso using the production and tooling facilities for depot rebuilds and heavy Mx and checks.
 
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MikeD said:
One thing that was left in Iran during the fall in 79, was all the Bell production facilities and tooling. They were building AH-1J Sea Cobra and UH-1N/212 and Bell 214s there. All that stuff was left behind. Iranian mechs had been working on these helos and other, along with jets and large Boeing/Lockheed planes, so none of this was new to them, but they did have to get production stuff translated over to Farsi. What parts they didn’t have, they manufactured. But they did start running out of parts.

Then, in the early 1980s, some real politik happened. The US needed to fund the anti-communist Contras group in El Salvador who were fighting the communist Sandianistas of Nicaragua required funding and arming. Congress had forbidden the Reagan administration of directly funding them. So, the plan to indirectly fund them, went into motion. The Iran/Contra plan saw the US in back channel communications with Iran, who was having a hell of a time in their war with Iraq, which started at the worst possible time for Iran…immediately post-revolution. Iran needed equipment. US needed the Contras funded. US agreed to send secondhand mil equipment to Iran, which is what they were operating anyway, in exchange for Iran putting the money for those items into an account funding the Contras. Iran received TOW missiles, early gen M16s and M60s, tons of ammo for same, 90mm and 106mm recoilless rifles, Redeye SAMs, Hawk SAMs, lots of parts for UH-1 and AH-1 helos, mostly models we didn’t fly ever or flew upgraded models of. Parts for F-4s sent through other countries and munitions like Mk series bombs with early PW-1 guidance kits, early EO AGM-65 missiles, lots of bench stock that we didn’t use much anymore. That’s a big part of how they have been able to sustain their 1980s military for so long. The helo that the President was riding on was likely well maintained, or perhaps if a Mx cause to this crash, had something fail or a maintainer failure like happens to any other aircraft. Or if pilot error, likely no different than what happened to pilots anywhere. It’s interesting and impressive what the Iranians have been able to maintain as frontline equipment, including doing depot-level rebuilds and Mx.
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Bell 214ST looked like a cool chopper, wondered why the US never operated them.
 
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