Intersection Takeoff Question

[fholbert]

Tower should be able to give you distance available from and intersection.

Yep

In the tower cab under the Plexiglas counter-top there is usually a lot of local information (and coffee) where I'd expect to find distance remaining from intersections.

 

[sweeps]

It's required. I have never gotten an intersection takeoff without tower giving me the runway available. It isn't on the chart, and if you are concerned about performance, I wouldn't take one without confirming unless I had a death wish.

Is that only for 121 or under certain conditions? Or all airplanes at all runways etc? I've had many intersection takeoffs and rarely heard the distance remaining given, granted most of those were in a 172...

 

[comfortablynumb]

Look for one of these?

Not all runways have them

 

[Autothrust Blue]

Is that only for 121 or under certain conditions? Or all airplanes at all runways etc? I've had many intersection takeoffs and rarely heard the distance remaining given, granted most of those were in a 172...

I've heard it expressed as "Runway (__) at (__) is available for departures, distance (___) feet." It's noted on the LAX airport diagram too ("ATC may clear aircraft for takeoff at Runway 25R at F, distance (many thousands) feet") as that's SOP down there.

How does one do that?

Let me clarify... I get a TLR that includes some intersection departures. It gives performance numbers from that intersection but does not give distance available from the intersection. I can also send a data request to Aerodata via the ACARS for pretty much any runway/intersection combo. When that data comes back it gives performance numbers AND the amount of pavement available. However, using just the paper TLR I have no way of knowing the actual distance. Does that matter if I have performance numbers for that intersection?

Our paper TLR includes the distances too, but we can't actually pull an American/United and say that we're waiting for numbers - our takeoff data is paper only.

I'm sure there's a reason we get that number, I just don't know what it is. I want to go talk to our performance people one of these days and ask.

...pilot stuff...
We just went to 8R.

The path of least resistance.

 

[Roger Roger]

I had a flight out to Marine Corps Air Station Yuma yesterday and after having lunch we taxied out and were cleared for an intersection takeoff.

My question is how can I assure that the intersection takeoff clearance will have enough adequate runway length given density altitude, weight, etc.?

ATC did not provide runway length details after giving us our clearance. Is this something I can always ask for given whichever taxi way were depart at?

121 air carrier? If so shouldn't this be covered in your ops manual?

 

[TripSix]

It's required. I have never gotten an intersection takeoff without tower giving me the runway available. It isn't on the chart, and if you are concerned about performance, I wouldn't take one without confirming unless I had a death wish.

It's only REQUIRED for military aircraft, with one exception. See below.

"d. Intersection departures may be initiated by a controller or a controller may authorize an intersection departure if a pilot requests. Issue the measured distance from the intersection to the runway end rounded “down” to the nearest 50 feet to any pilot who requests and to all military aircraft, unless use of the intersection is covered in appropriate directives.

NOTE-
1. Exceptions are authorized where specific military aircraft routinely make intersection takeoffs and procedures are defined in appropriate directives. The authority exercising operational control of such aircraft ensures that all pilots are thoroughly familiar with these procedures, including the usable runway length from the applicable intersection.

2. Some airports publish “declared distances” for a particular runway. These are published in the Airport Facility Directory (A/FD) or the Aeronautical Information Publication (AIP) and there is no requirement that facility personnel be aware of them. These distances are a means of satisfying airport design criteria and are intended to be used by pilots and/or operators for preflight performance planning only. There are no special markings, signing, or lighting associated with declared distances and they do not limit the actual runway available for use by an aircraft. Therefore, they cannot be used for any air traffic control purpose. If pilots inquire about the existence of declared distances, refer them to the A/FD or AIP.

PHRASEOLOGY-
RUNWAY (number) AT (taxiway designator) INTERSECTION DEPARTURE (remaining length) FEET AVAILABLE."

 

[e6bflyer]

It's only REQUIRED for military aircraft, with one exception. See below.

"d. Intersection departures may be initiated by a controller or a controller may authorize an intersection departure if a pilot requests. Issue the measured distance from the intersection to the runway end rounded “down” to the nearest 50 feet to any pilot who requests and to all military aircraft, unless use of the intersection is covered in appropriate directives.

NOTE-
1. Exceptions are authorized where specific military aircraft routinely make intersection takeoffs and procedures are defined in appropriate directives. The authority exercising operational control of such aircraft ensures that all pilots are thoroughly familiar with these procedures, including the usable runway length from the applicable intersection.

2. Some airports publish “declared distances” for a particular runway. These are published in the Airport Facility Directory (A/FD) or the Aeronautical Information Publication (AIP) and there is no requirement that facility personnel be aware of them. These distances are a means of satisfying airport design criteria and are intended to be used by pilots and/or operators for preflight performance planning only. There are no special markings, signing, or lighting associated with declared distances and they do not limit the actual runway available for use by an aircraft. Therefore, they cannot be used for any air traffic control purpose. If pilots inquire about the existence of declared distances, refer them to the A/FD or AIP.

PHRASEOLOGY-
RUNWAY (number) AT (taxiway designator) INTERSECTION DEPARTURE (remaining length) FEET AVAILABLE."

Got it...didn't realize that, thanks.

In any case, it is available if anyone asks. If I had a doubt...I would ask.

 

[SpiceWeasel]

How does one do that?

Let me clarify... I get a TLR that includes some intersection departures. It gives performance numbers from that intersection but does not give distance available from the intersection. I can also send a data request to Aerodata via the ACARS for pretty much any runway/intersection combo. When that data comes back it gives performance numbers AND the amount of pavement available. However, using just the paper TLR I have no way of knowing the actual distance. Does that matter if I have performance numbers for that intersection?

Also, interesting story from the other day...

8L in HNL was shortened by 3000 feet due to construction on the eastern end of the runway for about 5 days. During that time period the company elected to update our ACARS data manager which meant for about 3 hours we wouldn't be able to get takeoff data via the ACARS and instead would have to use the performance books in each airplane. (we also had TLR data but for some reason it wasn't showing the shortened runway so we couldn't use it.) There are three "normal" takeoff points on 8L. Full length (12,000 feet), RB (which is about a 500 foot reduction) and L which gives you about 7500 feet of runway. The performance book gives data for each of these points. HOWEVER... with the runway being shortened by 3000 feet all of that data was invalid. We got a message from Flight Ops saying that we could use the data for a Lima intersection departure (~7500 feet available) and just take off full length (which gave us 9000 feet of runway). At first brush this sounds fine but like @Boris Badenov said, this doesn't take into account the second stage climb. In theory you are taking off from a point further back (full length instead of Lima) from where the data is for so you SHOULD be ok, but there are a whole lot of what ifs and unknowns with that.

We just went to 8R.

Our Aerodata provides distance remaining for any takeoff, full length, intersection, back taxi, etc.

The performance data on your TLR will take into account all climb segments and it will do it for an intersection or full length.

If you use intersection data, any distance you take off from before that intersection will provide legal clearance.

What am I missing?

 

[Dugie8]

What does TLR stand for?

 

[TFaudree_ERAU]

Look for one of these?

I only see that number from the judges when I land.

 

[SpiceWeasel]

What does TLR stand for?

Takeoff and Landing Report. It's an Aerodata-ism.

 

[drunkenbeagle]

Without getting into all the what ifs and wherefores, you need to know "exactly" how your airplane will perform from any intersection takeoff. Tower is more than happy to offer intersection takeoffs thinking they are doing you a favor, but it is up to you to determine if your takeoff performance comfortably fits within the intersection takeoff runway length. If you're not sure, just tell tower you require full length.

Just to add - someone I knew fairly well was a killed not too long ago, for the simple reason that they did not take the full length, which they easily could have back taxied for. In a single engine aircraft, there is never any reason not to take full length - no matter how long the runway is. If you don't have an extra engine, you always require full length.

 

[Dugie8]

Takeoff and Landing Report. It's an Aerodata-ism.

Gotcha. Thank you.

 

[Autothrust Blue]

Just to add - someone I knew fairly well was a killed not too long ago, for the simple reason that they did not take the full length, which they easily could have back taxied for. In a single engine aircraft, there is never any reason not to take full length - no matter how long the runway is. If you don't have an extra engine, you always require full length.

Good practice to work for American, too. *smirk* You can practice waiting for your numbers too!