Interesting Article about Piedmont
- Thread starter SurferLucas
- Start date
JoelT
Well-Known Member
Hmmm, weird. At every airline I have worked for (four total) I have always felt what the pusher feels like in training and what to do when it activates. Granted, the instructor doesn't say, "OK, now we are going to do 'stick pusher' training so, be prepared when it comes on and ..."
It is just part of learning how the airplane stalls. Of course, if the company is not adequately teaching stalls in the first place well...
It is just part of learning how the airplane stalls. Of course, if the company is not adequately teaching stalls in the first place well...
SurferLucas
Southern Gentleman
Hell, at Horizon...my instructor made me stall the airplane to stick pusher and then hold onto it...wanted to fully stall the airplane to show that the Q400 will fully stall and fly out of it just fine.
I wonder if anyone on here is a Piedmont pilot and can comment on it...(OrangeAnchor, sorry you can't comment, you flew for the "real" Piedmont...lol).
I wonder if anyone on here is a Piedmont pilot and can comment on it...(OrangeAnchor, sorry you can't comment, you flew for the "real" Piedmont...lol).
SurferLucas; at Horizon you stalled the airplane? Or you stalled the simulator? Please clarify.
The article is correct and did not seem to embelish in any way. Nobody at Piedmont has been trained on the stick pusher, except for those people were sent to a contract training simulator in '07/early'08 when the hiring boom was overwhelming our own simulator capacity. Probably less than 5% of our pilots. The rest of us just assume that we know what it means when the pusher activates, and we assume that we know how we will react.
To the cynics who say, "awww come on its a pusher, it pushes the nose down. How much training do you really need?" Its not that we aren't capable of understanding the system so much as we need to have some familiarity with its operation so that nobody overreacts when it really does happen. Like many abnormal things, you never really know how you will react until the event actually happens to you. Some of you macho cynics may be the ones who find yourself fighting the pusher, you really never know.
I will say that Babbit's explanation in the article of "we train to never allow the airplane to get into a stall" is total bull. OF COURSE we train to never get into a stall, are we not capable of also training to understand what happens when we do stall the airplane too?? We are talking about commercial airline pilots with passengers trust in their hands are we not?
Its horsecrap that these cronies in Washington get away with this stuff. His response is like we just asked for a 40% pay raise! All we are asking for is a very minor ammount of additional training. Others have brought this to the attention of our management to be met with much the same response; "Not required, not necessary, maybe in the future, looking into it.."
I'm glad that the Buffalo news has been so proactive about bringing this one of many safety issues to light in the aviation industry. Good on them.
The article is correct and did not seem to embelish in any way. Nobody at Piedmont has been trained on the stick pusher, except for those people were sent to a contract training simulator in '07/early'08 when the hiring boom was overwhelming our own simulator capacity. Probably less than 5% of our pilots. The rest of us just assume that we know what it means when the pusher activates, and we assume that we know how we will react.
To the cynics who say, "awww come on its a pusher, it pushes the nose down. How much training do you really need?" Its not that we aren't capable of understanding the system so much as we need to have some familiarity with its operation so that nobody overreacts when it really does happen. Like many abnormal things, you never really know how you will react until the event actually happens to you. Some of you macho cynics may be the ones who find yourself fighting the pusher, you really never know.
I will say that Babbit's explanation in the article of "we train to never allow the airplane to get into a stall" is total bull. OF COURSE we train to never get into a stall, are we not capable of also training to understand what happens when we do stall the airplane too?? We are talking about commercial airline pilots with passengers trust in their hands are we not?
Its horsecrap that these cronies in Washington get away with this stuff. His response is like we just asked for a 40% pay raise! All we are asking for is a very minor ammount of additional training. Others have brought this to the attention of our management to be met with much the same response; "Not required, not necessary, maybe in the future, looking into it.."
I'm glad that the Buffalo news has been so proactive about bringing this one of many safety issues to light in the aviation industry. Good on them.
E_Dawg
Moderator
I've always doubted the value of that training, I'm not sure if those sims are all that accurate at recreating flight conditions outside the normal realm.
ie the sim may power out just fine 'microsoft flight sim' style, but that doesn't necessarily mean the real plane would. Maybe I am wrong. :dunno:
SurferLucas
Southern Gentleman
It was the sim that we flew into a full stall situation.
I can't recall how much force is behind the Q400's stick pusher, but I know it's enough to snap it out of your hands if you don't have a firm grip on it...for some reason 150 ft/lbs seems to be in my head.
The main thing I remember from that exercise (this was during Initial), was that the plane stalled a good 10/15 kts after the Stick Pusher activated.
The Q400 sim we were flying was a brand new electric sim at Flight Safety in Seattle...it seemed to give an accurate projection of how the aircraft actually flew.
Your mileage may vary though!
I can't recall how much force is behind the Q400's stick pusher, but I know it's enough to snap it out of your hands if you don't have a firm grip on it...for some reason 150 ft/lbs seems to be in my head.
The main thing I remember from that exercise (this was during Initial), was that the plane stalled a good 10/15 kts after the Stick Pusher activated.
The Q400 sim we were flying was a brand new electric sim at Flight Safety in Seattle...it seemed to give an accurate projection of how the aircraft actually flew.
Your mileage may vary though!
SpiraMirabilis
Possible Subversive
PDT, like Mesa, does most of the training in Dash-100 or 200 sims which don't have a pusher. Thats my understanding anyway. I'm surprised Colgan doesn't do that, as they're cheaper. Do all the initial training in a round dial 100 sim, then differences for the 400... hey its all 1 type rating right?? :rotfl:
SurferLucas
Southern Gentleman
The Q400 should have been a separate type period...the airplane has too many things held over from the older Dash's to make it a "common type".
SpiraMirabilis
Possible Subversive
What do you mean? The overhead panel and power lever quadrant are exactly the same!!
SurferLucas
Southern Gentleman
When Bombardier was first designing the Q400, Horizon was one of the airlines that they went to first to talk about it.
The Q400 was originally going to have a much nicer cockpit...meaning, CRJ/Dornier 328 type glass with EICAS and such. It was going to have that overhead "Warnings and Cautions Panel", or even Condition Levers...those settings were supposed to be push buttons on the engine panel.
However, Horizon wanted it a common type with the 100/200's they had at the time (which of course anyone would). However, the ARCDU's (radio panel for those who don't fly it) don't exactly work with the HUD's that Horizon has. So afterwards Horizon had to add in a 3rd Nav.
The Q400 was originally going to have a much nicer cockpit...meaning, CRJ/Dornier 328 type glass with EICAS and such. It was going to have that overhead "Warnings and Cautions Panel", or even Condition Levers...those settings were supposed to be push buttons on the engine panel.
However, Horizon wanted it a common type with the 100/200's they had at the time (which of course anyone would). However, the ARCDU's (radio panel for those who don't fly it) don't exactly work with the HUD's that Horizon has. So afterwards Horizon had to add in a 3rd Nav.
SpiraMirabilis
Possible Subversive
It has condition levers... I'm not entirely sure they do anything though since the prop and engine are computer controlled, but if they took them out they would have to get a new type.
Edit: Oh, you meant wasn't. I think we just said the same thing.
Edit2: I remember sitting up front in the Q400 once on a Lynx flight, and by the time we were getting close to the airport I understood the speed difference. And it seemed to me that they were coming in slowly... I'd do 210kts to the marker on the -200. I thought maybe they were just conservative in their flying... then when they pulled the condition lever back to Max I was expecting the brakes to come up like I'm used to. Nothing happened! The props going to max cause so much drag and slowed you down so much that we called them something that rhymed with 'wussy lever'. But the 400 was noticably much more difficult to slow down. Always thought that was interesting.
Edit: Oh, you meant wasn't. I think we just said the same thing.
Edit2: I remember sitting up front in the Q400 once on a Lynx flight, and by the time we were getting close to the airport I understood the speed difference. And it seemed to me that they were coming in slowly... I'd do 210kts to the marker on the -200. I thought maybe they were just conservative in their flying... then when they pulled the condition lever back to Max I was expecting the brakes to come up like I'm used to. Nothing happened! The props going to max cause so much drag and slowed you down so much that we called them something that rhymed with 'wussy lever'. But the 400 was noticably much more difficult to slow down. Always thought that was interesting.
SurferLucas
Southern Gentleman
Hahaha...I think we did...and you're right, the Condition Levers have to link to the props other than via computer signals...they're there strictly because of the common type.
The Q4 doesn't give you much when you go from 850 to 1020...maybe 5 kts. When it's heavy coming down, it doesn't like to slow up.
I have gone gear down at 200 kts, then sped back up to 210/215 (Max Vle) coming into Seattle.
I got to fly a bid with one of our "test" pilots...aka, tech guys. He said the original "mockup/drawup" for the Q400's cockpit was complete different from what it is today, he's delivered 20 something of Horizon's Q4's...says the acceptance flights are beyond fun.
The Q4 doesn't give you much when you go from 850 to 1020...maybe 5 kts. When it's heavy coming down, it doesn't like to slow up.
I have gone gear down at 200 kts, then sped back up to 210/215 (Max Vle) coming into Seattle.
I got to fly a bid with one of our "test" pilots...aka, tech guys. He said the original "mockup/drawup" for the Q400's cockpit was complete different from what it is today, he's delivered 20 something of Horizon's Q4's...says the acceptance flights are beyond fun.