Instrument time for IR
- Thread starter aloft
- Start date
jrh
Well-Known Member
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Can anyone tell me definitively if the 40 hrs of instrument experience required for the instrument rating may include the 3 hrs required for a private pilot certificate? That is to say, is it 40 hrs total instrument experience or 40 hrs since your private ticket was issued?
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Here's a philosophical way to answer: Why would the instrument time from the private pilot training not count for the instrument rating?
It's all spelled out in 61.65(d).
Can anyone tell me definitively if the 40 hrs of instrument experience required for the instrument rating may include the 3 hrs required for a private pilot certificate? That is to say, is it 40 hrs total instrument experience or 40 hrs since your private ticket was issued?
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Here's a philosophical way to answer: Why would the instrument time from the private pilot training not count for the instrument rating?
It's all spelled out in 61.65(d).
MidlifeFlyer
Well-Known Member
The Part 61 FAQ which, correct or not, should be used as guidance by all DPEs seems to say no. (i think it's wrong, but no one put me in charge). The FAQ, through a number of answers, takes the position that (1) the hood work done for the private is "flight solely by reference to instruments", not "instrument training" (that part does make some sense) and (2) that the private tasks were therefore not "actual or simulated instrument time on the areas of operation of this section..." [61.65(d)(2)].
Here's one of the FAQ in the context of a commercial pilot who is going for the instrument rating. Note the last sentence:
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QUESTION: An applicant holds a Commercial certificate (ASEL) and is now working towards an Instrument-Airplane rating which requires at least 40 hours of actual or simulated instrument time as required by 61.65(d)(2). If the applicant has already obtained some actual or simulated instrument time on the areas of operation of covered in § 61.65 but did so in the course of obtaining his Private/Commercial certificate, do those hours count in meeting the requirements of § 61.65(d)(2)?
ANSWER: Ref. § 61.65(d)(2); I can't give you a yes or no straight answer to your question. It depends. The flight instructor is going to have to review the applicant's training records and see whether the training received is equivalent and creditable to the training required by § 61.65(c). But again, it has to have been accomplished after the applicant received his or her Private Pilot Certificate. Because the training required for the Private Pilot applicant by § 61.109(a)(3) is not “instrument training.”
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I have a feeling that not too many DPE actually follow this FAQ since (a) the "rule" is buried in a bunch of them, (b) you have to connect the dots to really see what Lynch is saying, and (c) the reasoning is bogus..
Here's one of the FAQ in the context of a commercial pilot who is going for the instrument rating. Note the last sentence:
==============================
QUESTION: An applicant holds a Commercial certificate (ASEL) and is now working towards an Instrument-Airplane rating which requires at least 40 hours of actual or simulated instrument time as required by 61.65(d)(2). If the applicant has already obtained some actual or simulated instrument time on the areas of operation of covered in § 61.65 but did so in the course of obtaining his Private/Commercial certificate, do those hours count in meeting the requirements of § 61.65(d)(2)?
ANSWER: Ref. § 61.65(d)(2); I can't give you a yes or no straight answer to your question. It depends. The flight instructor is going to have to review the applicant's training records and see whether the training received is equivalent and creditable to the training required by § 61.65(c). But again, it has to have been accomplished after the applicant received his or her Private Pilot Certificate. Because the training required for the Private Pilot applicant by § 61.109(a)(3) is not “instrument training.”
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I have a feeling that not too many DPE actually follow this FAQ since (a) the "rule" is buried in a bunch of them, (b) you have to connect the dots to really see what Lynch is saying, and (c) the reasoning is bogus..
mtsu_av8er
Well-Known Member
Grabo172
Well-Known Member
This is from 61.65...
" (2) A total of 40 hours of actual or simulated instrument time on the areas of operation of this section, to include—"
Doesn't have to be "Instrument Training"...
Just instrument time... that's where some safety pilot time can be used as well...
The FAA's FAQ is not correct in this instance, they contradict themselves... (Hmmm No government agency would ever do that!
)
" (2) A total of 40 hours of actual or simulated instrument time on the areas of operation of this section, to include—"
Doesn't have to be "Instrument Training"...
Just instrument time... that's where some safety pilot time can be used as well...
The FAA's FAQ is not correct in this instance, they contradict themselves... (Hmmm No government agency would ever do that!
jrh
Well-Known Member
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Just instrument time... that's where some safety pilot time can be used as well...
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Eh??? That I don't buy.
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He's saying that you don't need to have an instructor for all of those 40 hours. If you want, you can go practice approaches with a safety pilot instead of an instructor. Saves money on instructional fees when you get to the point that you understand how to do approaches, but need practice at keeping everything together before your checkride.
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Just instrument time... that's where some safety pilot time can be used as well...
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Eh??? That I don't buy.
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He's saying that you don't need to have an instructor for all of those 40 hours. If you want, you can go practice approaches with a safety pilot instead of an instructor. Saves money on instructional fees when you get to the point that you understand how to do approaches, but need practice at keeping everything together before your checkride.
MidlifeFlyer
Well-Known Member
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Just instrument time... that's where some safety pilot time can be used as well...
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Eh??? That I don't buy.
[/ QUOTE ]What part of it don't you buy? Unless you were thinking that he was saying (he wasn't) you can use the time where =you= are acying as a safety pilot?
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Just instrument time... that's where some safety pilot time can be used as well...
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Eh??? That I don't buy.
[/ QUOTE ]What part of it don't you buy? Unless you were thinking that he was saying (he wasn't) you can use the time where =you= are acying as a safety pilot?
Grabo172
Well-Known Member
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Just instrument time... that's where some safety pilot time can be used as well...
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Eh??? That I don't buy.
[/ QUOTE ]What part of it don't you buy? Unless you were thinking that he was saying (he wasn't) you can use the time where =you= are acying as a safety pilot?
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Sorry for the confusion
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I mean when YOU are under the foggles with a safety pilot... Like said, it saves some money .
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Just instrument time... that's where some safety pilot time can be used as well...
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Eh??? That I don't buy.
[/ QUOTE ]What part of it don't you buy? Unless you were thinking that he was saying (he wasn't) you can use the time where =you= are acying as a safety pilot?
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Sorry for the confusion
I mean when YOU are under the foggles with a safety pilot... Like said, it saves some money .
aloft
New Member
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Unless you were thinking that he was saying (he wasn't) you can use the time where =you= are acying as a safety pilot?
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That's what I understood him to be saying--which, as he's clarified, was not his intent.
That said, yes, I agree that flying off the remainder of that 40 hrs with a safety pilot is 1) economical, and 2) very valuable since you're having to make the decisions instead of your instructor.
Unless you were thinking that he was saying (he wasn't) you can use the time where =you= are acying as a safety pilot?
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That's what I understood him to be saying--which, as he's clarified, was not his intent.
That said, yes, I agree that flying off the remainder of that 40 hrs with a safety pilot is 1) economical, and 2) very valuable since you're having to make the decisions instead of your instructor.