Instrument Proficiency Check and Simulators

BrianNC

BrianNC

Well-Known Member
While discussing sim time and total time on another thread, and the sim time I have being on an approved ground trainer, an ATC610 or 710, this question popped up:

Can an IPC be done on an ATC610 or 710? I know it can be done in some simulators, but was wondering about that one. I have heard different answers.
 
Well, according to 61.57, it has to be done in an aircraft appropriate to the category, BUT I think I remember reading a reg somewhere that certifies certain sims for IPCs. Just can't find it right now.
 
I think I saw something recently about the new PTS and sims. If the sim is approved for circling approaches (level C or better) then you can do the whole IPC in a sim. Under the old PTS for instruments you could have pulled it of in a garden variety sim. If anyone has a better reference than my low RAM brain please say something, cause I'm wrong all the time. Ask my wife!
-LC
 
Here is the actual reg under 61.57:

[ QUOTE ]
(d) Instrument proficiency check. Except as provided in paragraph (e) of this section, a person who does not meet the instrument experience requirements of paragraph (c) of this section within the prescribed time, or within 6 calendar months after the prescribed time, may not serve as pilot in command under IFR or in weather conditions less than the minimums prescribed for VFR until that person passes an instrument proficiency check consisting of a representative number of tasks required by the instrument rating practical test.

(1) The instrument proficiency check must be --

(i) In an aircraft that is appropriate to the aircraft category;

(ii) For other than a glider, in a flight simulator or flight training device that is representative of the aircraft category;


[/ QUOTE ]

One can be used. Just wondering if the 610 or 710 is one of them. It is a flight training device and representative of the aircraft category.

I had one flight instructor tell me yes and another one no.
 
[ QUOTE ]
I think I saw something recently about the new PTS and sims. If the sim is approved for circling approaches (level C or better) then you can do the whole IPC in a sim. Under the old PTS for instruments you could have pulled it of in a garden variety sim. If anyone has a better reference than my low RAM brain please say something, cause I'm wrong all the time. Ask my wife!
-LC

[/ QUOTE ]

Circling approaches are not an IPC requirement. This is right out of my 5 year old PTS....if someone has a newer one and can correct me if I'm wrong then please do
grin.gif


IPCs may be conducted in any simulator or approved flight training device. The key word being "approved"....that bit is important ;-) I've done several in the past in ATC-710s and 810s.
 
61.57 - ".... an instrument proficiency check consisting of a representative number of tasks required by the instrument PTS."

Circle to land is in the PTS, so while it's not required for the IPC, it's fair game.
 
[ QUOTE ]
61.57 - ".... an instrument proficiency check consisting of a representative number of tasks required by the instrument PTS."

Circle to land is in the PTS, so while it's not required for the IPC, it's fair game.

[/ QUOTE ]

Well, fair enough, I wasn't trying to argue that point. The question was whether or not it was legal. Since it is not a REQUIRED task, then conceivebly the instructor conducting the IPC could still test the student on a circle to land procedure on a 710, and it would still make for a legal IPC.
 
[ QUOTE ]

Circling approaches are not an IPC requirement. This is right out of my 5 year old PTS....if someone has a newer one and can correct me if I'm wrong then please do
grin.gif


[/ QUOTE ]Sure. Get a new PTS. The Instrument PTS (beginning with the one =before= the current one) set out specific requirements for an IPC. It includes circling approaches.

So, no, if the listed sims are not approved for circling approaches, you can't do a full IPC in them.
 
You are only looking for a REPRESENTATIVE amount of tasks from the PTS, so you don't need to do a circling approach to complete an IPC. The amount of tasks is determined by the person giving the IPC.

You can do a full IPC in a SIM or approved FTD.
 
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]

Circling approaches are not an IPC requirement. This is right out of my 5 year old PTS....if someone has a newer one and can correct me if I'm wrong then please do
grin.gif


[/ QUOTE ]Sure. Get a new PTS. The Instrument PTS (beginning with the one =before= the current one) set out specific requirements for an IPC. It includes circling approaches.

So, no, if the listed sims are not approved for circling approaches, you can't do a full IPC in them.

[/ QUOTE ]

I had a feeling that was the case...hate it when that happens!

When was the latest one issued/revised? The one I referred to is very old...1997. I bought a new one around 2002 when they made some changes, but that got lost along with my CFI bag of goodies.
 
Negative. You MUST complete, "at a minimum", the tasks in the table under IPC. Circling approach is one of those tasks, in the latest PTS, which I think was updated/issued around Oct last year.

If you look at it, in the new PTS the IPC is actually more stringent/involved than what's required on the initial instrument checkride. Lesson there is, don't let your instrument currency expire!

To answer the original question, I just did some work with a FSDO examiner on our FTD (ATC 710), and it IS approved for most all of the IPC, with the exception of the circling approach. When a sim is certified, much like an airplane, the model is certified, as opposed to each individual sim. We called ATC the other day, to get the original certification letter faxed over to us..........this letter is an FAA authorization, spelling out what you can and can't do with the sim.
 
So let's say I had done an IPC on an ATC610 a couple of months ago, unless I go get an airplane and an instructor and do a circling approach, it is not valid?
 
Well, I'd say that's on the instructor, not you. Technically, no it's not valid, because the instructor didn't cover everything he was supposed to. However, because he signed it off as complete, I'd say you're legal.

That said, if you haven't done a circling approach in a while (and I'm guessing, since you needed an IPC, it had been at least a year since you'd flown instruments), I'd highly recommend you grab a CFII and do a couple anyways. Circling approaches are potentially very dangerous maneuvers, and the refresher would be a good idea.
 
Ah ha...

Thanks... Learn something new every day... guess only if you have the Cat A, B, C, D sim you can accomplish the Circling approach.
 
The way I understand it, just has to be an approved sim, with a visual system. So, the ATC 810 with a visual system, for example, could be used for the entire IPC. Least, that's the way the SC FSDO who was here explained it to me.
 
You have to look at the sim's certification to make sure. For example, I'm 90% sure the sim we have at Skymates is not cert for circle to lands, and it's level III sim with visual cues. I'm not even sure if the full motion Motus sim at Air Orlando is certified for circle to lands. Kinda hard to do a circle to land when the runway disappears becasue there is no monitor on the left or right side. I'll check the cert for our sim when I head up to the school today.
 
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