Instrument Checkride - Oral Question

Malko

Malko

Why…..? It’s so tiring. 🤙
Staff member
I had my IFR checkride yesterday, we didn't get to fly, but did complete the oral portion. I am curious to see how others answer the question. Without giving too much away, there is a VOT in the area. Here is the approach: VOR36 - KFCM

number 1 VOR is centered on the inbound course
DME is 5.7
number 2 vor is full scale deflection to the right

what do you do?
what is wrong?

Btw, the wx is at mins....

I am just curious to see how others answer. I gave a quick answer, but he kept digging and digging. He was looking for a complete answer that had everything thought out. I 'll post the answer that I got to after his digging later..


edit...I pressed enter too fast. Your brain is O.K.
 
I think my brain is fried from work. I didn't see a question?
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edit.... Thank GOD, I thought I'd officially lost it.
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He actually gave me that much. He set it up that I have verfied the freq.s you're inbound, and then posed the question.
 
I am assuming vor#1 is FCM VOR 353 deg inbound on 111.8, and #2 is on FGT VOR on 115.7 291 from. They should both be close to centered at that point. If not, at least 1 of them is wrong. I suppose you could quick tune the VOT to check both the VOR's. I think that is asking for a mental overload on approach.
 
Here is the approach again. Somehow the link got deleted. If one of the admins happened to change it, or if I should not have posted a link, please let me know:

kfcm-vor36
 
[ QUOTE ]
I suppose you could quick tune the VOT to check both the VOR's.

[/ QUOTE ]

Ah yes, but at that point you may very well have blown through the FAF which is 'prior' which you cannot even positively identify.
 
I would pause the flight simulator and go and get a large cup of coffee from Caribou
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Seriously though, congrats for getting through the oral, Jim. Sounds like Ray gave you a thorough grilling. Any idea when the 'ride is going to be?
 
Yep, I go back to work tonight and work through Saturday a.m. Ray is off Sa-Mo. Sot the ride is Tuesday, 10am. If all goes well, I will be instrument rated shortly after lunch time.
 
I'm working on instrument right now. Honestly I'd have to say in that situation instead of screwing around with the VOT on final just go missed. Figure it out above MSA. IMO

Besides, from what I see on the chart is IAF/FAF 5.7 not 5.6 DME. So you're already past the initial. If the needle didn't come in you can't descend below 2700. If the WX is at mins then you can't land, again missed approach would be best. Figure it out in the hold.

errr anything else my brain is starting to fail too.
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[ QUOTE ]
Ummm....what?

[/ QUOTE ]

Ditto.

Either I'm confused, or there are some variables missing in this question. What freq. is the #2 set to? What is the #2 OBS set to? Are they both tuned and identified?
 
[ QUOTE ]
Figure it out above MSA

[/ QUOTE ]
Absolutely !
[ QUOTE ]
Figure it out in the hold.

[/ QUOTE ]
Well, how are you going to fly the holding pattern if you don't know if the VOR's are working properly.
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The answer that I eventually got to after some digging and prodding from the examiner was:
I have three instruments that may or may not be working properly: VOR1, VOR2, or DME. 1st thing is go missed and contact ATC. Let them know that one of my instruments may have failed. Ask them if I can continue on current heading and try and figure it out. After that, tune in the VOT on both VOR's to 111.0 (MSP) and twist the OBS to 180. It is determined that VOR2 is bad so I cover it up. Contact ATC and requesty vectors back around for the approach.

The main thing that he was driving at was dialing up the VOT and the communication between pilot and ATC. He used this example, because a short time ago, the exact thing happened to him. It was a hard oral exam but I know I took a lot from it. Now if I can just get the dang flight in this week.
 
[ QUOTE ]
What freq. is the #2 set to? What is the #2 OBS set to? Are they both tuned and identified?

[/ QUOTE ]
The #2 is dialed into the proper freq 115.7 and the obs was twisted to 291. Yes they were both identified and tuned. I did not put in every single piece of info, but I figured people would make the assumption that they were, seeing as how I never said they weren't. Anyhow, I guess assuming that the VOR's weren't tuned already is no worse than me assuming the people would make that asusmption as well.
 
Word
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But still I wouldn't be messing with checking the VOR on the VOT while on final and beyond the FAF. It would be time to go missed. Full deflection of # 2 either means you passed or never identified the fix. And you can fly the hold using NAV 1 switching back and forth while timing to identify the holding fix.
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Just gotta be quick with the stand by freq and yer twisting.

And what I said before. If you can't ID the FAF you can't go below the 2700 and if WX is at the min then its still missed aprch.

So whats the answer already. ?
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Ok, I'm instrument rated as of last December and I hope I don't end up digging my own grave and embarassing myself by trying to answer this question, but here goes:

You said that all your navs are tuned and ID'd. I'm guessing that includes your DME as well. As long as you have the DME identifier at least that is reliable. Therefore, I'm not sure you really need the cross-radial fix from FGT to identify PRIOR. Now, BIG assumption here, since you are flying an instrument approach and its imc you must have had some way of navigating to this airport and since you are flying a VOR approach it makes sense to assume that you've been using at least VOR #1 to navigate the victor airways and such. If using VOR1 to navigate enroute and ATC hasn't called you on getting back on an airway, you have to assume VOR1 is/has been reliable. So that along with the reliable DME should give you confidence you are on the right FAC and at the IAF/FAF. Now a really quick VOR check that I would do is tune #2 to FCM and dial in the FAC and see the indications. If it is within +/- 4 of #1 then I would worry (because now #2 which was way off tuned to FGT is reading "correctly" when tuned to FCM). If it is way off like it was when it was tuned to FGT then that would lessen my worry. If time permitted you could probably also go vice versa and tune #1 to FGT to see its indications.
Now I realize that my answer has some major assumptions and I agree with those above saying to go missed and figure things out above MSA. I would also use that time to maybe get ATC involved to see if they can confirm your headings with your VOR indications to really smoke out the bad VOR. Now I've probably broke some "major rules of engagement"
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, but there it is.
 
"a. The FAA VOR test facility (VOT) transmits a test signal which provides users a convenient means to determine the operational status and accuracy of a VOR receiver while on the ground where a VOT is located. The airborne use of VOT is permitted; however, its use is strictly limited to those areas/altitudes specifically authorized in the A/FD or appropriate supplement."

I was going to say it was wrong to use a VOT in the air. But, luckily for me, I looked it up first. Seems like you can, in the right circumstances.
 
Here was the answer I got to after the prodding him...

[ QUOTE ]
The answer that I eventually got to after some digging and prodding from the examiner was:
I have three instruments that may or may not be working properly: VOR1, VOR2, or DME. 1st thing is go missed and contact ATC. Let them know that one of my instruments may have failed. Ask them if I can continue on current heading and try and figure it out. After that, tune in the VOT on both VOR's to 111.0 (MSP) and twist the OBS to 180. It is determined that VOR2 is bad so I cover it up. Contact ATC and requesty vectors back around for the approach.

The main thing that he was driving at was dialing up the VOT and the communication between pilot and ATC. He used this example, because a short time ago, the exact thing happened to him. It was a hard oral exam but I know I took a lot from it. Now if I can just get the dang flight in this week.


[/ QUOTE ]

As for flying the hold with the #1 VOR, he mentioned that how do you know the #1VOR, is the good one?
 
Ahhh .. I see. I made the assumption the #2 was already a goner cause it was full scale and only .1 dme from the fix.

I didn't see the answer posted last night
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