Instrument approach (descending on the hold)

[LV-ARG]

How are you supossed to fly this exactly? Several questions come to my mind when looking at this...
Can you begin your descent after crossing the VOR if you need to do a teardrop / paralell entry to the hold? If using direct entry, or you cannot descend while you are getting stablished on the hold, when can you start descending? Right after you cross the VOR or you would need to be on a 317 heading for that? Until what point would you need to stay above/maintain 3120? Completion of the turn? positive course guiadance?

Im thinking that depending on how you fly this, it could get really tricky trying to acomplish a stabilized approach given all the turning, descending and leveling going on in such a short period of time.

 

[jeflies]

A good rule of thumb I was told was 10, 10, and cleared regarding decents on an approach.

If I were cleared direct FDO and given "Cross FDO at 5000 cleared VOR DME ILS DME 13" I'd cross it at and maintain 5000 and make my entry accordingly. Regardless of the entry used, I would not begin my descent to 3120 until I was within 10 degrees of that 317 radial and still within 10nm of the station.

The same goes for the inbound leg. Once your established on that (within 10 degrees & 10nm of the 317 radial) then I would begin my descent down to 2500.

So to reiterate, maintain your vectored altitude until crossing the fix AND until your established accordingly. Some controllers give the clearance like this, "Maintain 5000 until on a published segment of the approach..." Their vector is only good for your present position to that fix. After that, published segments are giving you terrain clearance.

I dont fly with Jepps but im assuming the bold holding pattern requires a lap around the hold after entry. This would make sense due to the amount of turns and intercepts upcoming on the approach. Can jepp users confirm this?

 

[MidlifeFlyer]

The key for me is always to remember that a HILO is just a PT with a special shape. What would you do if this was a "normal" barbed PT? Same here. 3120 until established inbound in the PT then down to 2500 until the VOR.

jeflies, there's no difference between how you fly a HILO on a Jepp chart and on other ones. Assuming a US approach (which this is not), you'd find the exact same bold holding pattern for a HILO in the gov't chart. The rules applicable to the approach don't depend on who writes the chart and a HILO is a HILO. None require more than outbound, course reversal and then inbound all the way to the landing or missed.

 

[Hammertime]

...Regardless of the entry used, I would not begin my descent to 3120 until I was within 10 degrees of that 317 radial and still within 10nm of the station.

The same goes for the inbound leg. Once your established on that (within 10 degrees & 10nm of the 317 radial) then I would begin my descent down to 2500.

So to reiterate, maintain your vectored altitude until crossing the fix AND until your established accordingly. Some controllers give the clearance like this, "Maintain 5000 until on a published segment of the approach..." Their vector is only good for your present position to that fix. After that, published segments are giving you terrain clearance.

I dont fly with Jepps but im assuming the bold holding pattern requires a lap around the hold after entry. This would make sense due to the amount of turns and intercepts upcoming on the approach. Can jepp users confirm this?

Well, the plate says nothing about 10NM, it actually says 1 min (hence the max IAS 210), so the correct procedure given THIS clearance "Proceed direct San Fernando, cleared VOR DME ILS DME 13" would be:
1. Proceed direct. (duh)
2. Once crossing the VOR, regardless of the entry used, begin a descent to 3120 while flying outbound for 1 minute.
3. Once established on the inbound course, descend to 2500.
4. Proceed with the approach as published

However, a clearance to "maintain 5000 until established, cleared for the... ...approach" would imply vectors to final, which would mean that you would NOT do the hold, hold entry/PT. Once established, descend to the appropriate altitude to the segment you are on. For example, if you received that clearance and intercepted the 317 TO FDO outside the VOR, you would descend to 2500, cross the VOR, and proceed inbound.

A final note. My guess is the local controllers vector everyone onto the ILS approach course, completely ignoring the hold, as it is a pain for all involved...

 

[LV-ARG]

Even though theres a SSR, no radar vectoring is given. The approach normally in use is pretty much a straight line with no PT.

 

[///AMG]

Id agree. Heading to yield that ground track and descent on the outbound leg to 3120, then once established on the inbound radial (I wait until I'm within a few degrees of c/l) descent down to 2500 until crossing the vor. Outbound on the cheater radial and intercept the ils. Looks like a PT but without as much specificity. If they gave you holding over the vor there, you would not descend until cleared to commence the approach. This procedure does the same thing a pt does so the holding is going to be a separate affair until you commence. Feel free to enter with any method as long as you stay within protected airspace on the holding side of the radial

 

[jeflies]

jeflies, there's no difference between how you fly a HILO on a Jepp chart and on other ones. Assuming a US approach (which this is not), you'd find the exact same bold holding pattern for a HILO in the gov't chart. The rules applicable to the approach don't depend on who writes the chart and a HILO is a HILO. None require more than outbound, course reversal and then inbound all the way to the landing or missed.

Thanks for clearing it up. Having never used jepps I'm not sure of the differences.

 

[MidlifeFlyer]

Thanks for clearing it up. Having never used jepps I'm not sure of the differences.

The differences are formatting and layout. The IAPs themselves are regulatory - issued under FAR Part 97. (At least for US approaches, Jepp and AeroNav (the latest version of the government office) don't create procedures; they just chart them. The official regulatory version is created on this form: http://www.faa.gov/about/office_org...fs/afs400/afs420/terps_forms/media/8260_5.pdf

 

[MikeD]

That's one of the things with Jepps; it's wise to confirm the info on some foreign IAPs, as Jepp indeed only chart's procedures, they don't produce or check them (as it's not their job or responsibility, that's the job of the host nation). At least on the govt side with NOS/NACO (whatever the term of the day is) in regards to the overseas charts that DoD comes up with, they're checked out and compared with TERPs guidelines, and those that don't meet it will be annotated on the plate with "NOT FOR CIVIL USE"; so there is some checking of the procedure itself.

 

[jonnydwolf]

This does not address the OP question, so my apology to go off topic. One thing I notice is that in parens under the freqs it says "Spanish", does that mean they only speak Spanish on those freqs.