Instructing pet peeves.....

Goonie

Goonie

Never say die
Keeping hand on the throttle during cruise flight.


Advancing props to full before landing. Why do people keep doing this? Go-around? Puuleezz
 
ryanmickG said:
Keeping hand on the throttle during cruise flight.
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I went up with an instructor once who insisted that I have one hand on the yoke and one on the throttle at all times. That's how I've learned to date.

Advancing props to full before landing. Why do people keep doing this? Go-around? Puuleezz
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what's the significance of this?
 
ryanmickG said:
Advancing props to full before landing. Why do people keep doing this? Go-around? Puuleezz
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Most check lists call for it and most pilots were trained that way. There's an argument to be made not to do it, but it's a solution for non-problem.
 
ryanmickG said:
Go-around? Puuleezz
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Yeah, I like the props set for take-off when I'm on short final in case of a sudden go-around in the flare.

Your careless attitude tells me you haven't had to make any go-arounds where you didn't really have time to push the props up first, so I know I must be speaking to the world's best pilot.

But most of us are not that good and I, for one, do like my props up during the landing flare.

But I don't put them forward on downwind - or base - but usually on final with the final gump check, so that there is no prop surge. That's probably what's buggin' you - is the folks who shove the props up on downwind and they surge.

But I do like to keep my mixture slightly leaned on final and throughout the touchdown.

I don't like pushing the mixture rich "in case of a go-around". Having the mixture too rich on an idling engine on final is asking for a "hesitation" or a total "quit" in case of a go-around with the plugs loaded up during the idle/low rpm state on final.

If I have to go-around at the last moment, pushing the mixture rich immediately after full throttle is no problem. Throttle - carb - mixture.
"All Knobs Forward"

And the engine operation is much cleaner and more efficient if the mixture is leaned to best power throughout the whole approach segment.
 
There is a freason fo rpushing the props up on final. When you have to go around just prior to/after touching down and need to climb quickly you don't want to only have 2300rpm and kill your climb rate. Not to mention your first thought in a late go-around isn't going to be push the prop forward, which means that you are going to be full throttle by the time you get to the prop, which means that you are going to get alot more surge than if you had pushed the prop foward on short final.
 
nosehair said:
Yeah, I like the props set for take-off when I'm on short final in case of a sudden go-around in the flare.

Your careless attitude tells me you haven't had to make any go-arounds where you didn't really have time to push the props up first, so I know I must be speaking to the world's best pilot.

But most of us are not that good and I, for one, do like my props up during the landing flare.
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Whoa! Easy there. Careless attitude? There is more than one way to skin a cat.

From John Deakin, a man I'd hardly call "careless" with more than 40 years experience as a pilot:

At Last, The Prop (And My Point)

Seems such a small thing, but this really makes a difference: I suggest that you do not make a habit of pushing the prop all the way forward for the landing. In fact, I cannot think of a reason to do it at all, unless you're much too fast on final, and need the drag ... when a go-around is more appropriate, anyway.

Is "prop forward" needed for the go-around? No! If you leave the prop set for some sort-of cruise RPM, you're all set to return to cruise manifold pressure, and that's more than enough power to arrest the descent and start the go-around process in just about all cases, except anemic airplanes at high elevations (where full throttle won't kill you anyway).

Key point; With the prop set for lower RPM, if you do panic and jam on full throttle (as McKittrick did), the low RPM will not let you get anywhere near full power, although it will probably give you more than you need. This means you will not get the "torque roll" so strongly in high-powered airplanes, and you will not get the strong nose-up pitch we see in so many airplanes, especially when trimmed too much. It won't scare passengers nearly as much, either, for it makes a very gentle transition from a normal approach angle to the go-around.

Gentle transitions are good. The usual go-around (from decades of training and lack of practice) are all too often a slam-bang, semi-botched maneuver. Let's slow it down, folks! None of us do them enough to get away with "quick!"

If you get "too much" manifold pressure with low RPM, it won't hurt a thing for a short time, even in "delicate" engines like the big Merlins. It takes time for the engine to heat up enough to produce detonation, the big fear. An overboost for 10 to 30 seconds isn't going to hurt a thing, in my opinion. The detonation many fear is at power settings well beyond any sane limits. (Full throttle -- at the physical stop -- in the normal Mustang is 61 inches at 3,100 RPM, and the Reno racers run 120 inches or more, and 3,600 RPM, and probably in detonation all the time.)

Matt taught McKittrick to use only 2,700 RPM in the pattern and for the landing, for some or all of the reasons above. And he taught the use of only 46 inches of manifold pressure for go-arounds and climb, also to get a more benign response. We'll never know why McKittrick chose to use 3,000 RPM for the fatal landing, and probably full power. Perhaps he felt "The Book Knows Best," and decided that, since it was his airplane, and he was now in command, he'd follow the book. Matt's no dummy, and he's got several thousand hours in these airplanes, much of it under "demanding" conditions, to say the least.
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This quote was taken from here:

http://www.avweb.com/news/pelican/pelicans_perch_87_killer_go-arounds_195755-1.html

Deakin was commenting on the recent fatal P-51 crash in Camarillo, CA and how lessons from that accident can be carried over in to other general aviation operations.
 
jrh said:
Whoa! Easy there. Careless attitude? There is more than one way to skin a cat.
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Yes, there is. I got the attitude from the words "Go-around? Puuleeze!"

Now, based on that comment alone, I got the impression that he doesn't go-around, or that a go-around is so far out of the possibilities, now that he is not in training anymore...bla,bla, bla. That is what I was referring to.

If he meant something like the article implies, that puttin' the props forward actally hurts, as in causing more 'up pitch & roll', well, that is handled by the technique of applying power with the throttle. If you slam it up, yeah, having the props back to cruise would help that pilot error, but the better way of operation is to have good pilot induced control of the application of power, (with the props forward) so that 100% of my attention is on pitch, roll, and yaw control - IN A MOMENT OF UNANTICIPATED flight.

Not the practiced, routine go-arounds where you can just ease up the throttle.

The kind where you're about to touch-down and a big hairy gust of wind rocks you about 30 degrees to the runway and before you can get the throttles up to the stops, you're seeing grass slidin' underneath, and you're puckerin' up because you think the wheels are gonna grab the grass, and the stall warning is blaring, and you're tryin' to shove the throttles through the firewall to get another inch.

...Got Prop?
 
jrh said:
Deakin was commenting on the recent fatal P-51 crash in Camarillo, CA and how lessons from that accident can be carried over in to other general aviation operations.
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John Deakin's position that we should bias all of GA training towards flying a P-51 is absurd. How many of us will ever fly airplanes like that? Much less than 1%, I bet.

Deakin is also a bit cavalier towards the penalty of a go-around with less than full rpm. I've seen a number of go-arounds that have caught my attention because the aircraft was at max gross, high density altitude, and upsloping terrain. The pilot's failure to advance RPM to full brought into doubt the success of this maneuver.

Most of Deakin's experience is Part 121 and transport category jets. As far as GA is concerned, I would give above average consideration to his opinions on piston engines and warbirds, but no further. There are vast numbers of people in GA with greater experience than his and less of an anti-authority attitude.
 
killbilly said:
I went up with an instructor once who insisted that I have one hand on the yoke and one on the throttle at all times. That's how I've learned to date.



what's the significance of this?
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Your instructor is wrong. You should have one hand on the yoke and the other resting on your knee.
 
killbilly said:
I went up with an instructor once who insisted that I have one hand on the yoke and one on the throttle at all times. That's how I've learned to date.



what's the significance of this?
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Since this is the CFI Corner, I will answer that with a CFI reason.

We do a lot of things in training that we don't do in ordinary everyday flying. Things that build a habit pattern.

Like turning your head, lifting a wing (if your'e highwing), saying "Clear Left", before you begin a turn.

This builds the habit - an automatic habit - of looking and clearing before you turn.

When you are in a normal operation, you don't normally have to make such a 'big deal' about clearing before you turn; you are looking around and clearing most of the time anyway, and if you suddenly decide to turn, and you know you have looked there 3 seconds ago, and you don't hafta say it to anyone, "clear left",...BUT...you have cleared yourself..because you were forced into a habit pattern.

During operations close to the ground, as in take-offs and landings, it is always a good idea to keep your hand on the throttle in case you need more. Being forced to fly with your hand on the throttle causes you to be more comfortable with your hand there when it is necessary to be there.

Drill Training. Doing things repeatedly until it is a normal habit. After a while, you don't even notice you are doing it. But you can do it automatically and with no thinking effort when it is necessary.
 
:yeahthat:​

I couldn't agree more with the idea of building habit patterns in students. We as instructor have a great responsibility to build safe and competent pilots.
 
All in 5 minutes or less: "Is that a bust?" "Would I bust for that?" "Would that have been a bust?" "Would I bust if I did that?" "Do people bust on this?"
 
Really dumb questions that the student already knows the answer to, then apologizes for asking, e.g. "Shall I lean the mixture?" immediately followed by "Oh, sorry, disregard, correction, I will now lean the mixture".
 
nosehair said:
But most of us are not that good and I, for one, do like my props up during the landing flare.

But I don't put them forward on downwind - or base - but usually on final with the final gump check, so that there is no prop surge. That's probably what's buggin' you - is the folks who shove the props up on downwind and they surge.
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That's how I was taught too nosehair, and I've had some pretty knowledgeable CFIs. But like you said, they also taught me to get the prop forward on final rather than downwind, so as not to surge.
 
My pet peeves:

1)Students/pilots that are (I guess) trying to impress me by screwing around with the GPS/altitude alerter/autopilot while not even keeping the freakin' airplane on centerline. All while getting ready to do pattern work! It doesn't impress me, and that's not the point of us flying together.

2)People that DON'T have one hand on the yoke and one hand on the power when we are in the pattern. Even worse when we're in the flare or taking off.

3)Not correcting for drift on a windy day.

4)Flying into the traffic pattern at 120 knots with their brain still stuck on slow flight. Uh, might want to slow down a little now!

5)Not studying, complaining that "I'm not into book work", etc. Simply manipulating the flight controls is a small part of piloting an airplane.

6)Taxiing over a whole forest of tie down ropes simply because "this way is faster". Augh!

7)Throwing your hands up in the middle of a flare when a gust of wind hits. Don't give up on the airplane please!

So, those are my pet peeves. Fortunately most students/pilots don't display these attributes, and I've only had one (so far) that had them all.
 
nosehair said:
During operations close to the ground, as in take-offs and landings, it is always a good idea to keep your hand on the throttle in case you need more. Being forced to fly with your hand on the throttle causes you to be more comfortable with your hand there when it is necessary to be there.

Drill Training. Doing things repeatedly until it is a normal habit. After a while, you don't even notice you are doing it. But you can do it automatically and with no thinking effort when it is necessary.
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First of all...wrong.

Here's what happens when you sit there and hold on to the throttle. A student learning to fly will constantly adjust the power. When you get 100 feet high or low you should not adjust the power, you should adjust the pitch and trim. When I fly with a throttle holder I sit there and watch the RPM fluxuate. Most of them dont even know they're doing it.

And secondly...dude relax.

I'm not saying that I'm such a badass pilot that I dont have to ever go-around. I'm saying It is not necessary to advance the props before landing. I have NEVER had to go-around so fast where I couldnt grab the whole throttle quadrent and advance everything at once.

You bring up some wind gust senerio. If the wind is calm then why would you advance the props to full on downwind? It shouldnt be an automatic procedure.
 
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