Initial contact

bc2209

bc2209

Well-Known Member
This is aimed more toward asking for flight following but could be applied elsewhere

I've heard pilots key up:

Pilot: Albuquerque center Oxford 362

Controller: Oxford 362 Albuquerque center go ahead

Pilot: 5 miles south of xyz, 5000, request flight following to xyz

OR

Pilot: Albuquerque center Oxford 362, 5 south of xyz, 5000, request flight following to xyz

I've been told to do it the latter way as it saves time and radio space. However, many times the controller will call back numerous asking for specific details, as if doing it all at once is too much info at one time.

Thoughts?
 
I feel like it changes, depending upon the frequency. If it's busy, I'll go with option 1. I feel like that gives them a chance to call you back at a better time if needed. If you blurt out the entire request on first contact, wouldn't it possibly clog up the whole operation?

If the freq is slow, I'll sometimes just blurt it all out. Majority of the time though, I just go with "blahblah238 request" (who am I kidding? I don't fly anything worthy of a call sign hah)
 
I'm sure it's different in the terminal environment, but in the center we don't have a pen in our hand ready to write your details down if you blurt it all out. The first thing we do is type in your callsign requesting a beacon code. Then the next step is to enter your aircraft type/Suffix, and destination in a separate entry. In the center if you keyed up "Albuquerque center Oxford 362 with a flight following request". The controller should come back with a beacon code and tell you to go ahead, (looking for your location/altitude/destination) or specifically ask you for those details. We try not to give pilots altitude changes/frequencies at the same time because it is a lot of numbers to get correct; like memorizing a phone number the very first time you hear it. Your callsign, location, altitude, and destination is a lot of info if we aren't ready for it.
 
Murphy's Law dictates you should do it the opposite of how ever you chose to do it. And once you've done it that other way, do it the first way next time.

Even the controllers who advocate blurting it all out have, many times, been on a land line when that call has come, requiring a repeat of much if not all of the information. Or maybe a pilot's broadcast on another frequency has drowned yours out.

The controllers who advocate establishing comms first before passing your message have sat in their chairs bitching about pilots taking up too much time on a busy frequency instead of just getting on with it.

You can't win.

Don't try.

I can get it all on the first call if I'm able to listen. Most able-minded controllers can. It just depends. I know we all make the joke about "I'm on the landline" being an excuse thrown out to cover the notion that we're not paying attention. But really, I'm on the landline fairly often, and I work a lot of frequencies. Sometimes there's just so much sound blasting into my speaker and/or earpiece that your flight following request is going to get jumbled up. Sometimes you're only the 3rd pilot in the area but all 3 of you transmit at once on separate frequencies while two towers, a center sector, and an adjacent approach call on their respective shout lines.

It's uncanny how often it happens, even during very slow traffic periods. It's the part of the job that makes me look skyward and think "Have I angered you, God of Air Traffic?"

I'd say establishing communication first is the most consistent way of getting your message across. I will also state here, under anonymity of the internet, that I will never personally get irritated or short with a pilot who choses this method, or the other. But I am just one controller. Remember the above. You can't win.
 
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I'm firmly in the approach N12345 camp, but either works. I can say N123 go ahead as a reach for a pen and blank strip. I am that way because most of the flight following calls I get are from a point A to a point B that are known to me. Tell me N12345 is a Skyhawk that departed KABC for KXYZ requesting 4,500 and the Kilo gets me without fail. That's like giving someone a four digit area code. Excuse me while I backspace my way through your destination not being another country.
 
Yeah, in the US, never use the K in your airport identifiers for flight following please (please use them when filing IFR electronically or with Flight Service). Our radar interface just uses the 3 letter ID. The flight plan computer is a separate interface and putting the K in on it works fine. We're typing as you're talking and it goes like this (on a terminal keyboard):

Aircraft ID
Departure*Destination
Aircraft Type
Altitude

Then the beacon code gets assigned and we move along. Most often, the request is given to us in a format that doesn't match the order it's entered on the keyboard:

"Pilot" [Controller Keyboard]

"Approach, N12345" [N12345 (space)]
"Request flight following to ABC" [waiting]
"Off of DEF airport" [ABC*DEF(space)]
"Cruising at 5,500" [waiting]
"We're a Cessna 182 Skylane" [C182(space)055(ENTER)]

This might be why your controller comes back and asks for bits you've already told them. We try to mentally "chunk" the information you're giving us as it comes in, so if it's out of order we can type what we know in order and remember the rest until we get to the spot where it belongs in the sequence. But, as we're trying to remember your cruising altitude while waiting for you to say your aircraft type and destination, sometimes it just gets dumped. The earlier the item appears in the sequence out of order, the more likely we are to forget it by the time the transmission is complete. It's even more fun when the K's get involved

"Approach, N12345" [N12345(space)]
"Off of KABC airport enroute to KDEF" [KAB....crap...backspacebackspacebackspace.... ABC*what did he say his destination wa...]
"Cruising at 5,5000..." [It's gone... It's all gone]

I hope you appreciate this for the humorous slant I'm giving it. This DOES actually happen this way sometimes. However, when I've had my 2 cups of coffee I can often get a flight following request typed in, in full, while two airliners check on without the ATIS and a tower calls me for a release. Some days I need a pilot to repeat a particularly difficult (to me) callsign 3 times before I get it right. It just depends on the clarity of transmission, the order the information is given to me, and how quickly I can switch between listening to multiple sources of input.
 
It just depends really, doesn't matter which way you do it. Just know that you'll occasionally get asked to repeat parts of what you want.

Option 1 for me means that I usually type the aircraft in and get a local VFR transponder code right away. Then I give it to you and Radar ID you and you tell me that you're wanting flight following to another aiport. Because you want flight following with another facility, I need to give you another beacon code that I can hand off to the center. Sometimes more work, but it's not bad at all.

Option 2 you tell me you want flight following, so I ask for your type aircraft and destination, then give you a Center code initially. I don't care if you departed an airport 100 miles away, so when other controllers look at your flight plan it'll say you departed my airport. If you've ever looked at your flightaware tracks on flight following trips, they don't always match up with your actual flight, this is why.
 
I fly in the SFRA most of the time, where talking to Approach is mandatory (unless you're in the JYO maneuvering area out of JYO, and even then it's still a good idea) and this is really helpful information. I often ask for flight following but I didn't realize you guys were typing out a form and that the information order was important. I'll try to be more cognizant of that.
 
I am in the brief initial call-up camp. If the controller is NOT expecting you, call up with call sign only, if the controller IS expecting you (such as an IFR departure off an uncontrolled airport or an IFR in-flight pickup, or even just an initial call on a new frequency), call up with your callsign, position, and altitude. Save requests and additional info for after communications are established.

I work radar sectors where a pen is always in hand to take down the info, the problem is a lot of pilots don't listen to the frequency before they start talking. I've had numerous instances where a pilot already on an IFR clearance checked on with "beercan537 with you climbing one-six-five for two-three-zero, requesting flight level three-five-zero as a final altitude, able up to three-seven-zero; estimating SNAFU at one-eight-two-seven and requesting mach seven-eight"

Besides being poor phraseology, it is true I do eventually need all that information, but initial call-up is an inappropriate time to give me all the info. If I read that statement out loud at a reasonable pace it takes me 15 seconds. In the particular instance I am thinking of, it meant issuing a vector for traffic 15 seconds later (the radar controller was stepped on). A jet traveling at 300 kts travels 1.25 nm in 15 seconds, that could easily be the difference between a loss of separation or not if traffic is being run tight.
 
greg1016 said:
I am in the brief initial call-up camp. If the controller is NOT expecting you, call up with call sign only, if the controller IS expecting you (such as an IFR departure off an uncontrolled airport or an IFR in-flight pickup, or even just an initial call on a new frequency), call up with your callsign, position, and altitude. Save requests and additional info for after communications are established.

I work radar sectors where a pen is always in hand to take down the info, the problem is a lot of pilots don't listen to the frequency before they start talking. I've had numerous instances where a pilot already on an IFR clearance checked on with "beercan537 with you climbing one-six-five for two-three-zero, requesting flight level three-five-zero as a final altitude, able up to three-seven-zero; estimating SNAFU at one-eight-two-seven and requesting mach seven-eight"

Besides being poor phraseology, it is true I do eventually need all that information, but initial call-up is an inappropriate time to give me all the info. If I read that statement out loud at a reasonable pace it takes me 15 seconds. In the particular instance I am thinking of, it meant issuing a vector for traffic 15 seconds later (the radar controller was stepped on). A jet traveling at 300 kts travels 1.25 nm in 15 seconds, that could easily be the difference between a loss of separation or not if traffic is being run tight.
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Even better to know when you put it in a perspective like that. Thank you
 
I routinely work 8 air to air frequencies and one RTR combined. I can't count how many times I've had the following. Approach, N12345 is 30 east of the haystack, we're a Cessna one seventy two slant Uniform, looking for flight following to KABC, we're white with red trim at six point five, occasional light shop, request bravo clearance ::squeeeeeee:: ber 123 looking for our IFR from ABC to DEF and I'd like to ::Genot's sector, sector xyz:: 80 as a final.. Meanwhile I'm screaming to the main tower and arrival about the Falcon that's blowing through another airport's final because I can't overpower the first guy.

Looking for their IFR say call sign? I was on the land line.
 
genot said:
I routinely work 8 air to air frequencies and one RTR combined. I can't count how many times I've had the following. Approach, N12345 is 30 east of the haystack, we're a Cessna one seventy two slant Uniform, looking for flight following to KABC, we're white with red trim at six point five, occasional light shop, request bravo clearance ::squeeeeeee:: ber 123 looking for our IFR from ABC to DEF and I'd like to ::Genot's sector, sector xyz:: 80 as a final.. Meanwhile I'm screaming to the main tower and arrival about the Falcon that's blowing through another airport's final because I can't overpower the first guy.

Looking for their IFR say call sign? I was on the land line.
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Oh god, I know a professional pilot that does this.
Uhhhh center n1244 is about 20 miles south of abc at three thousand four hundred feet climbing vfr to uhhh seventeen thousand, we departed about 20 past the hour, requesting ifr clearance to def. (Clearance is on file.)
 
FM_Weasel said:
Murphy's Law dictates you should do it the opposite of how ever you chose to do it. And once you've done it that other way, do it the first way next time.

Even the controllers who advocate blurting it all out have, many times, been on a land line when that call has come, requiring a repeat of much if not all of the information. Or maybe a pilot's broadcast on another frequency has drowned yours out.

The controllers who advocate establishing comms first before passing your message have sat in their chairs bitching about pilots taking up too much time on a busy frequency instead of just getting on with it.

You can't win.

Don't try.

I can get it all on the first call if I'm able to listen. Most able-minded controllers can. It just depends. I know we all make the joke about "I'm on the landline" being an excuse thrown out to cover the notion that we're not paying attention. But really, I'm on the landline fairly often, and I work a lot of frequencies. Sometimes there's just so much sound blasting into my speaker and/or earpiece that your flight following request is going to get jumbled up. Sometimes you're only the 3rd pilot in the area but all 3 of you transmit at once on separate frequencies while two towers, a center sector, and an adjacent approach call on their respective shout lines.

It's uncanny how often it happens, even during very slow traffic periods. It's the part of the job that makes me look skyward and think "Have I angered you, God of Air Traffic?"

I'd say establishing communication first is the most consistent way of getting your message across. I will also state here, under anonymity of the internet, that I will never personally get irritated or short with a pilot who choses this method, or the other. But I am just one controller. Remember the above. You can't win.
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This. The lows in my area are usually combined and work a lot of military trainers so you not only have multiple frequencies you're also working aircraft on UHF and VHF. There are also 6 approach controls a vfr tower and 2 centers all with multiple sectors trying to get you on a shout line. Then you have the in house guys coming directly into your ear. You'll also get the random call from FSS. 4 of the approaches are military with mostly 18-19 year olds that will honestly call you for EVERYTHING.

Like has been stated I like to believe I'm one of those that doesn't get frustrated but I'm still brand new and it can be hard not to throw your fist through the scope at times. The only thing that truly irritates me is the vfr at 3000ft that believes that just because he doesn't hear anybody means he's the only one there. PLEASE just be patient. I know a lot of them just don't realize it but certainly don't give me the "where have you been" tone when I finally get to you.
 
cmac88 said:
This. The lows in my area are usually combined and work a lot of military trainers so you not only have multiple frequencies you're also working aircraft on UHF and VHF. There are also 6 approach controls a vfr tower and 2 centers all with multiple sectors trying to get you on a shout line. Then you have the in house guys coming directly into your ear. You'll also get the random call from FSS. 4 of the approaches are military with mostly 18-19 year olds that will honestly call you for EVERYTHING.

Like has been stated I like to believe I'm one of those that doesn't get frustrated but I'm still brand new and it can be hard not to throw your fist through the scope at times. The only thing that truly irritates me is the vfr at 3000ft that believes that just because he doesn't hear anybody means he's the only one there. PLEASE just be patient. I know a lot of them just don't realize it but certainly don't give me the "where have you been" tone when I finally get to you.
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Give me your information slowly. "N12345, just departed ABC going to DEF at 4,500 and we're a C172." It allows us to type your information in as you're giving it assuming we aren't on the landline with another facility. If we are and say,"Last aircraft calling say again," just give us your information again slowly. In my opinion, you accomplish nothing by blurting out your call sign faster than an auctioneer or just calling up with your call sign because now we have to play twenty questions. Also, I DO NOT need the K in front of your destination in the USA!!! If you have an IFR filed, say something like,"N12345 just departed ABC looking to pick up our IFR clearance to DEF."
 
Operating in the Los Angeles area, most of our departure and approach controllers are closer to auctioneers then communication specialists.
I subscribe to the "you get more bees with sugar versus vinegar" approach.
Generally, I advise making initial contact by stating along the lines of:
:Socal Departure, Cherokee 123AB 3000 for 4500 over Pacific Palisades with a VFR request"

Then I wait for the controller to get back to me. While waiting I do not exceed 4500 or go below 3000.

The vast majority of the time the controller comes back with "Cherokee 123AB, say request"
Sometimes though he/she is swamped and I get "VFR aircraft calling, standby 5 minutes"

I try to measure the level of activity on frequency and make my VFR request in a tone that communicates my willingness to be patient and wait for them to have a good moment to deal with me.

When on an IFR flight plan in VFR conditions, I try to stay clear of airliner communication traffic but not to the extent that I come close to busting airspace.

On an IFR plan in IMC, I preface my call "Socal Departure, Cherokee 123AB 3000 for 6000, imc"

Back to VFR requests, I try to avoid machine gunning the entire VFR flight following request into one initial transmission...cause I am VFR in a sea full of IFR traffic.

:)
 
Good info. I'm definitely going to be using this information to better teach/equip my students on ATC etiquette. Their inability to pick up on queues, and realize what the guy on the other end of the radio has to do in order to give you what you need can create some real havoc sometimes.

To all the controllers that have students botch radio calls, and misunderstand basic radio calls and students ask "Say Again" a million times or say "Affirmative" to a question given over the radio, I apologize. They're a student, they have to learn one way or another, and if it really does get bad enough, of course I will step in.

That said as a flight instructor, I tend to have a short "leash" when we're in busy airspace such as the class B because there isn't enough time for a student to fumble radio calls, and it can do damage to more than just you, but all the other airplanes waiting for timely vectors from ATC. In less busy airspace where things slow going, I'll give my student more lee-way to figure things out on the radio to an extent.
 
.....and the Kilo gets me without fail. That's like giving someone a four digit area code. Excuse me while I backspace my way through your destination not being another country.

That DAMN Kilo. Drives me crazy
:bang:
 
I always prefer "X Center, Skyhawk 1329L, five south of ABC, request flight following" because half the time you're not in my airspace anyway, and I can either get you to the correct sector, or get you a beacon code if you are. Any more information than that (like current altitude or destination) isn't needed yet, so that's really the most efficient way IMO to call up.

"X Center, N12345 with a request" is a waste of two transmissions because center then has to say "go ahead," then you're likely to give too much information only to find out you're not in their airspace anyway.
 
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